Presumeably the choice is either stop everything or nothing at Lisburn, insert some more padding for trains that don't stop at Lisburn or do not go clockface. Alternatively abandon the vain and unnecessary 10 min off peak DART service.

As it happens I was in Portadown yesterday and NIR were supplementing their regular hourly service to Belfast with express services. From Belfast in the evening between 1600 and1930 there were 9 services to Portadown. From Dublin, yesterday, there were just 4 services to Drogheda during the same period. Five of the Portadown services were expresses compared to two of the Drogheda services. On. Saturdays, from Pirtadown, there is a half hourly service and in addition to the Dublin service there are no less than 16 expresses in either direction. In Drogheda, apart from the Belfast trains, there are no fast services. Still I am sure Irish Rail have it right, stuff the place with slow moving DARTs and have everybody travel at 20 mph - the obvious way to grow business and revenue ?

The drivers don't particularly want the new DART timetable either
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/irela...vity-1.2465984

They are never happy and never will be.

Its always fun to ask a Union busy body do they know what the big space in the equipment rack in the cab is for.

Can't wait until someone finally has the balls in Irish Rail to tender for the automatic driving equipment, let see what the unions think then

They only ever talk about benchmarking when it's in their favour as well, that is what always amused me and the only reason they are calling for it is for this reason. They will want all the things that they feel they don't have the best of benchmarks, but without benchmarking anything that is better.

If there was to be overall benchmarking over the whole CIE group, those in the other two companies in the group would be very unhappy and say how unfair it is and how it will negatively impact their terms and condition and ability to earn a living and an appropriate standard of life.

It's all smoke and mirrors as usual, anyone who is paid less than them in the same industry is underpaid, anyone who is paid a higher rate in the same industry has the correct pay and anyone who is not in an operational customer facing role is vastly overpaid.

No doubt if any mention of tendering services is mentioned drivers will plough the usual line about the service needing to stay public else greedy fat cat shareholders will attempt to try and profit from it at the expense of the service and public services should be run for the benefit of the public and not private interest, whilst the very same people continue to put their own private interests ahead of the same public. Talk about ironic.

The fact that the first thing that happens when a big increase in DART frequency is proposed is the staff basically say it's not going to happen unless they get their own way speaks volumes about who the company is truly run for.

No doubt that old chestnut "Safety" will be brought up in the discussions in some way if they need to drum up a bit of support.

Perhaps the new drivers haven't applied to be NBRU members and that's his real problem :rolleyes:

I never take much notice about what any union says in public as that is just posturing. It's all just optics.

The real position and negotiations take place behind closed doors.

There are a lot of optics around the proposed timetable !

well not really. they havent decided that it was wrong (they'll point out the DMU's using them for example) they'll say that they have been prevented from using them properly through cutbacks, delays to the great cross river re signalling project, cancelling DART underground et all...

but even so it seems from what we are seeing here is that its not exactly the number of units they have, but how they are being allocated.

Unable to board the 5.54pm 4 car DART to Malahide from Connolly due to severe over-crowding once more. Happy I left work early to do some shopping and wasn't waiting at Clontarf, at least I could get the commuter to Dundalk from Connolly.

There was approx 50 people at Connolly who tried to board who were not able to with various sighs and comments about four cars at peak times being unacceptable and that yet again they were unable to board.

Of course, a few minutes before a six car Howth came with many seats free and a 4 car Howth with a few seats free came a few minutes afterwards, really shows the joke that it is having 2 Malahide DARTS in 90 minutes whilst having 5 Howths in just 60 minutes!

Am I mistaken in thinking that there are actually two four car DARTs one after the other northbound from Connolly, at 1747 and 1754, the first relatively lightly loaded and the second heavily overcrowded. Assumming that "all carriages are in use" at this time, would it not make sense to combine the two trains into an 8 car set and run this to Malahide. This would reduce overcrowding a little as well as reducing congestion.

It's a little more crazy than that, this is the way it normally is

17:24 Malahide (6 cars)
17:28 Howth (6 cars)
17:39 Howth (4 cars)
17:47 Howth (6 cars)
17:54 Malahide (4 cars)
18:08 Howth (4 cars)
18:27 Howth (6 cars)
18:42 Malahide (4 cars)
18:53 Howth (6 cars)
19:08 Malahide (8 cars)

The laughable thing is after the 17:54 which you can't always board there is the biggest gap of peak of 48 minutes and when a train does eventually come it's 4 cars and just as overcrowded as the previous 4 car train. Then the next train has the shortest gap of the whole of peak on the branch (26 minutes) and it has the same capacity of the previous two trains combined when it's not needed.

Lets not mention the fact pretty much all of those Howth trains would struggle to fill two carriages after Howth Junction whilst after Howth Junction the Malahide DARTs are absolutely jammed, still. A couple of times I have seen people unable to board a train to Malahide at Howth Junction because it's still full. Thankfully that has not happened since the summer though.

This is why the 17:54 and 18:42 trains always are at least 5 minutes late and mostly nearer 10 and always delays the commuters behind because of the awful dwell times.

But there are trains at 1802 (Dundalk, viciously overcrowded and almost always late) and 1823 (Drogheda). Both of these serve stations between Howth Junction and Malahide.

Not much help to someone who commutes from Clontarf like myself or further up the line and can't board which is my main gripe since I can't always make the proceeding Howth train and changee at Howth Junction.

It doesn't surprise me that the commuter is overcrowded, a good few of those people would be people who tried to take the proceeding Malahide DART at Pearse or Tara Street and couldn't board which also happens.

In the last six months on the DART we are talking about I've seen people been unable to board at Pearse, Tara Street, Clontarf and Connolly all whilst Howth's continue to carry thing air.

There have also been occasions at Connolly in the summer where it has been impossible to board the 1802 commuter as well.

The 1908 is the reading herring of them all, it should have at least two cars removed, I know people will moan about the southside will lose out, but every train serves every station on the Southside apart from Greystones, unlike the north.

If people cannot board a train on a much lower frequency than a destination which has lots more trains and is carrying thin air, there is a complete mismatch between capacity and demand.

Latest from unions
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1223/755...ption-warning/

The Rosters are unworkable it's claimed.

Again this is all posturing - the real discussions will take place behind closed doors.

It's the union leadership being seen to be "doing something".

As I've said before - I generally take what is said publically with a grain of salt.

Logically it doesn't make sense to increase the dart frequency if your journey time increases by more than 2.5 minutes.

On average, with a fifteen minute frequency and assuming you just turn up and go, you will have to wait 7.5 minutes.

On average, with a ten minute frequency and assuming you just turn up and go, you will have to wait 5 minutes.

So you gain on average 2.5 minutes, which is lost entirely if the journey time is extended by more than this.

And that excludes any other disadvantages of increased frequency like slower commuter services, frustrated drivers at level crossing barriers that are down for longer, cost of additional drivers.

In an election year, logic has very little to do with it. 10 minute DART frequency looks good on an election leaflet and neither politicians nor media are good with details like average end-to-end journey times. You also didn't mention the cost of frustrated truck drivers hitting barriers which will become at least a weekly event if the barriers spend 3 minutes of every 5 down.

At least this timetable change has prompted me to make serious efforts to serious reduce or entirely end my 4 day a week long-distance commute. After 12 years, I can't take another 20 minutes being added to my day. I'm hopeful I can say goodbye to my pass at renewal time in August.

Eddie, James Howard:

The more I think of it the more stupid is this fixation on a 10-minute DART service all day. On commuter routes just about everywhere, frequency (and capacity) is related to demand, i.e. to the morning and evening peaks mainly. LUAS is 3 to 4 minutes in the morning peak and anything from 6 to 15 minutes off-peak. That's the normal way of doing things everywhere, except apparently in the Wonderland of DART.

Even worse, a huge amount of money has been spent a few years ago enabling the operation of 8-carriage DARTs. Now the strategy seems to be for more frequent trains, very often 4 or 6 carriages. This is a straightforward waste of track capacity. James Howard refers to faster DART time making things more attractive for passengers. True, and it also enables more frequent trains. Trying to fit in very frequent trains and simultaneously timetabling slower trains is a very inefficient use of track capacity.

And having the same service interval between 8 and 9am as you have between 9 and 10pm is pure madness.

I feel the same - I have had the Taxsaver Short Hop Rail for the last umpteen years and between journey time increasing and certain trains running late it makes sense for me now to switch to Dublin Bus Taxsaver as I can get into work quicker.

the mention of election year is apt. the first thing this gov did in connection with rail was allow Alan Kelly play trains in tipperary, now the last thing they are doign is playing trains in dublin because it looks good on an election poster.

what will happen in all,likelihood is that it will be dropped/amended after the election and the unions are being played very well into being blamed for it.

The conspiracy theorist tells me youre right.

Interestingly, last week there was no timetable uploaded for end January onwards, now the current timetable is uoaded upto September.... Interesting .....

Hopefully it has dawned on the relevant parties that the proposed 10 minute interval DART timetable is impractical without unacceptable disruption to InterCity and longer distance users.

Ironically there is little benefit for DART users either as the reduced turn up and go waiting times are substantially eroded by increased journey times. More congestion and smaller peak hour trains would further erode any residual benefit for DART users.

Hopefully the effort will now turn to improving services for all users and in particular to the elimination of half-sized DART trains at peak periods. Better alignment of commuter services with the existing 15 minute interval DART and upsizing some of the DART trains would be a big step forward.

Any significant changes in frequency, other than on the already speed restricted section between Connolly and Grand Canal Dock will require additional tracks and/or overtaking facilities if some degree of service quality is to be maintained.

I'd quite happily trade a few mins extra on DART journey times for the fact I can board, the 17:54 at Connolly I was unable to board again tonight to Malahide, along with about 50-60 others. Approx 80-90 people standing in each carriage. I just got the commuter afterwards though happily, but 9/10 if I get that train it's from Clontarf, and it wouldn't have been possible to get the commuter there.

Meanwhile coming into Platform 5 just before the 17:54 heading southbound was an 8 car 8100 class with no more than 15-20 people in each carriage. Really makes you sick. There was more people on one carriage of the four car train than the entire 8 car heading south.

I don't necessarily think a 10 minute dart frequency is needed from my point of view, if they balanced the spread of departures between Malahide and Howth and removed long gaps and aligned capacity properly, there's no need for a service every 10 minutes.

Looks like the timetable has been deferred until April

Unions or NTA that stopped them, hoping for the latter but you never know.

Well I'm going to have to find another way to get to work. Irish Rail can wave goodbye to their 4 grand from me once my pass expires.

We have no confirmation of what the timetable actually will be post April 10 currently.

@Dublin13... there are other options from Clontarf Road in the period you mention.

For example, you could catch the 18:13 Howth bound DART as far as Howth, and pick up the 18:32 Dundalk train there (8 min wait at HJ).

Or the 18:31 and 18:57 (that one has a 14 min wait at HJ, so not ideal).

However, I think the timetable could be much better designed so that Commutters don't end up chugging all the way to Malahide behind a DART (and there are several other points where a small change to the order of trains would allow Malahide branch passengers to use Howth DART and Commuter combinations, and also avoid delays for Northern line passengers.

Appears they have kicked the Heuston timetable down the road as well, unlikely before September, at that stage they should do the sensible thing at wait until December and implement it like before.

I leave work at 5.30 and can be at Clontarf for about 5.45 without any issue. My morning commute takes me 23 minutes from leaving my house to getting into the office, any of those options is going to add severe time on to the journey, to the point where it takes me at least 3x longer to get home at night to when I leave in the morning. It then becomes much easier to take the care than get the train.

The Howth line is ridiculously over-served. The frequency it gets bears no resplendence to the amount of passengers who actually use it in evening peak, almost all the pax are only going between Kilester and Howth Junction The easy solution is to remove one of the Howth Trains and add the 4 cars to the Malahide train that is overcrowded, freeing up paths and increasing capacity where needed.

Last night there was almost 70-80 people standing per carriage on the 17:54 from Connolly in the four car dart train, the Howth's just before and just after had barely a soul standing and past experience has shown they are almost empty by the time they reach Howth Junction whereas the Malahide ones are full. It's not unknown for passengers going to Malahide via HOWTH Darts alighting at Howth Junction to not be able ot even board at Howth Junction, that is how bad it is.

The 16.02 to Dundalk was stuck behind the 17:54 Malahide DART last night because of the chroni dwell times that DART suffers from because of intense overcrowding because of the fact it should never be a four car. If Irish rail adjusted capacity to demand everyone would get home quicker, but they don't so there are delays a plenty with knock on effect for trains behind.

Don't blame us Malahide passengers, we get a damn raw deal as well, the only people who are getting vastly overserved is Howth, so if there is going to be any fall guy in this it should be them as they have the most slack to give. Both commuter passengers and Malahide branch passengers are being shafted, I totally agree with that, but believe me, if your blaming the Malahide DARTs for running late, you're looking at a symptom of the overall issue rather than the direct cause.

All Irish rail have to do is stick the appropriate number of cars on the Malahide services and you will find the 18:02 commuter would be much more reliable. But they won't andd the Malahide guys who are at DART only station don't have a whole lot of other decent choices that doesn't increase there commute by several times over. The 17:54 Malahide gets later and later by the month as the overcrowding becomes worse and more often

In any case, unless Irish Rail do something in the next few weeks I won't be renewing my annual pass, I'd rather drive than deal with the crazy pantomime in the evening that Irish Rail know about and continue to allow carriages sit idle, despite people passing out in the summer and other trains carrying sweet fresh air.

7.07am from Clongriffin is now scheduled to be a 6 car set on Monday's now and an 8 car all other days with effect of last week for operational reasons apparently.

Why they take two cars off it on a Monday I have no idea but February will be the last month of me commuting via Irish Rail as I go back to the car as my annual ticket is up.

After using IE for almost 3 years I can't be bothered with this carry on anymore and with the timetable change kicked further down the road I'll reassess it when it gets implemented.

Attachment 1613

Just some idea of what could be done with northern line northbound peak period departures Mondays to Fridays - same number of trains but organised to interfere with each other as as little as possible.

A little less overcrowding and improved rather than dis-improved journey times.

Does Belfast fit into those plans without impacting?

Just an extract, 1650 unchanged, 1900 departs 1905 and recovers 4 minutes to Drogheda and 1 minute thereafter.

Not acceptable to Malahide branch passengers the minimum that needs to happen for any kind of acceptable service is;

17;58 ex Clontarf to be increased from cars.
The placement of a train between 17:58 and 18:46 ideally removing a Howth or getting a single commuter to call at Clontarf.

I agree the previous timetable published was unworkable but so is this one. I'm very sorry that commuter passengers are getting delayed by us people on the Malahide branch, but for some of us there is no train at all because we can't board which makes our evening commutes 2-3x longer than the morning.

Is this to suit you or is there a genuine flow of commuter traffic from Clontarf towards Malahide?

I'm reluctant to post fantasy timetables, because it's very easy to come up with timetables that seem perfectly sensible to us, but we can never take into account all the operational issues that have to be factored into a real world timetable.

However, have a look at the northbound movements through Connolly in the peak evening commuting period:

Time Gap Destination
16:50 Belfast
16:51 00:01 Drogheda
16:54 00:03 Malahide
17:08 00:14 Howth
17:21 00:13 Dundalk
17:24 00:03 Howth
17:39 00:15 Malahide
17:47 00:08 Maynooth
17:54 00:07 Howth
18:05 00:11 Drogheda
18:08 00:03 Howth
18:23 00:15 Drogheda
18:27 00:04 Howth
18:40 00:13 Drogheda
18:42 00:02 Malahide
18:47 00:05 Maynooth
18:53 00:06 Howth
19:00 00:07 Belfast

I'm counting 6 gaps of over 10 minutes, and two of 15 minutes. It should be possible to fit at least 6, and possibly 8 extra trains through Connolly while maintaining the 5 minute gaps required by the signalling system.

It should be possible to fit extra extra train paths to allow 6 DARTs per hour without massive increases to train times. Is the problem that "every 10 mins" is too inflexible? If the extra trains were added a little more flexibly, with a little of clustering of DARTs and some slightly longer gaps to allow longer distance trains to get through without completely ruining journey times. I think DART customers would appreciate the extra services, even if it's not quite a 10 minute frequency. Off-peak services could more easily achieve something closer to a 10 minute service.

I also think that overcrowding on commuter services needs to be looked at. It wouldn't be hard to have a 4-car semi-express service running ahead of the busier northern line services, perhaps with stops in Balbriggan, Laytown and Drogheda, easing some of the demand on the stopping service following. I'm sure something similar on the Maynooth line would also be sensible.

Of course, extra services cost money, and I suspect the government subvention isn't likely to be increased any time soon.

You keep saying that there is no option between 17:58 and 18:46 from Clontarf Road for Malahide line passengers.

However there is an alternative - you could get on the 18:13 to Howth as far as Howth Junction and change there for stations to Malahide with an eight minute connection at Howth Junction.

No it's not ideal, but it is a valid option.

It's because people are getting left behind on the 17:58 because they are unable to board the train, even people get left behind at Connolly on a regular basis by that train.

A piss poor option at that. I Finish work at 5.30. My morning commute takes me 30 minutes from my door to the office. If I did what you said. it would be almost 1hr 15 mins in the evening.

I'd be waiting longer at Clontarf for a train than I spent door to door in the morning commute. But don't worry, someone on the Howht branch can get a bank of four seats to themselves with trains every 10-15 minutes.

An even better option is the car with evening commute times like that because IE can't provide a proper level of service my car can.

Alternatively Irish Rail could just sling another two cars on the 17:58 and everyone can board. But that would make far too much sense.

The only time it happened to be more than four cars was when someone was doing a survey was on there about the service. Funny that.