Closure on the cards. A wanton throwaway of an asset whose potential is being ignored
 

:mad: From this week's Wexford People

IT WON'T be long before the whistle blows for the last time on the Rosslare to Waterford train.

Iarnród Éireann has confirmed that it is considering ending services on the line, to save money.

In a letter to Labour T.D., Brendan Howlin, the District Manager in Waterford Emmet Cotter said the line has experienced 'very low patronage' for years.

Approximately 25 passengers travel on it every day, with revenue making up only 2% of operating costs. The closure would generate 'substantial cost savings', he said.

The sugar beet industry previously helped the line to remain viable but that came to an end in 2006.

Mr. Cotter blamed a reduction in the Government's subvention to Iarnrod Eireann for the company having to consider closing the Rosslare-Waterford line which also serves the villages of Rosslare Strand, Bridgetown, Wellingtonbridge, Ballycullane and Campile.

He said the company is currently surveying customers on the route to establish their origin and destination; is discussing the possibility of re-deployment or voluntary severance with staff, and examining possible alternative services which could be provided to customers.

'A decision on the continuation of existing services on the route is expected to be made within weeks, following these actions,' he said.

He revealed that Iarnrod Eireann would explore the possibility of establishing a 'heritage railway' on the route, to benefit tourism.

Fianna Fail Deputy Seán Connick, having been in contact with both Irish Rail and the Transport Minister Noel Dempsey, has said the service 'could be in danger of closing in the near future'.

Deputy Connick said that the future of the line was first put into doubt with the publication of the An Bord Snip Nua report of last year, which advocated the closure of a number of lightly used rail services, including the Rosslare-Waterford line.

'The Rosslare-Waterford railway line has the potential to be an important link between south Wexford and Waterford City,' said the Fianna Fáil TD.

'Unfortunately this line has never been developed properly and has never reached its potential to be a viable alternative source of transport for people working or studying in Waterford. The current service has only one train a day in either direction.

'The train from Waterford to Rosslare leaves the station in Waterford at 5:20 p.m. This would not give anyone studying in WIT or working in the city centre sufficient time to get the train to travel home,' said the New Ross-based TD.

'This means that Irish Rail's own timetable is the biggest impediment to the development of the Rosslare-Waterford railway line.'

Deputy Connick said he has been in correspondence with both the Transport Minister Noel Dempsey and officials from Irish Rail about the rail service, but it seems his pleas have fallen on deaf ears.

Meanwhile, Wexford Borough Councillor Joe Ryan (Lab), who has been fighting to save the railway line, said he was 'very disenchanted' with Iarnrod Eireann management. 'The line has potential but Iarnrod Eireann isn't interested,' he said.

Cllr. Ryan said the cost of taxi fares in 2009, to return staff to Waterford was over €30,000.

'Iarnrod Eireann had the chance of running the train back to Waterford to avoid the transport cost. They also had the option of using a Wexford-based crew.

Deputy Howlin was due to raise the issue during an Adjournment Debate in Dail Eireann last night (Tuesday).

- Maria PEPPER and Conor CULLEN

all the staples are there: run a railway at times that suit no one and then watch it fail, still good to see they will run it as a heritage line (yes, that was sarcasm)

"alternative methods" = Bus.

disgrace.

Which ends up getting cancelled eventually anyway.

The bus service that was put in place to replace the Mallow-Waterford line when it closed is one of those shelved in the recent round of cuts. Give it enough time and the same thing will be done in Wexford.

Is that the limit of Railusers Ireland response? If so it's easy to see why RUI are regarded as Palerail by many. :confused:

There is a legal consultation period before IE can do anything.

We have a defined policy on regional routes and naturally will only make a formal statement once the committee has met and discussed the matter. Its not the first time this issue has arisen however we need to determine how real this is first.

The other problem with the "replacement" service is that it doesn't appear on the IE timetable since it's a BE service, so what little feed trickles through onto the rest of the network disappears because it's not convenient for casual browsers to make connections.

That said, I looked at the route in Google Maps and it's one field after another and not even a bullet straight route like Glounthaune-Youghal at that, instead winding along with plenty of LCs and the opening Barrow bridge to be maintained.

Ironically, one of the things IE blame for not being able to run later is that the 1720 ex Waterford is crewed from Waterford, and the bus from Rosslare they get back to base leaves at 1900. If it left 15-20 minutes later, it could pick up trade from the 1933 arrival ex Heuston as well as those still trying to get across the river from where most people work. That would mean the crew would miss their bus... or Bus Eireann could be asked to delay their service by 15 minutes. Nah, that would violate Mary Harney's precious competition between rail and bus.

At the very least IE should be leaned on to redirect that equipment to Carlow for a commuter service - it's a bit ridiculous that there's no arrival from that side into Waterford before 0945.

Let's examine the alternative arrangements:

1. Bus

So the bus it is then.

I have looked at trying to travel between the two towns when I'm in the area, but surprise surprise the times don't suit.

IE have a fair point when they say it's a loss-making line, but that could be said of many routes across the country. They can't close them all.

IE do not have a fair point - there's not a line in the country that doesn't lose money so perhaps the entire system should close down??:mad:

[Article] Waterford to Rosslare rail line could close
 

Plumb - the reality is that they get a subsidy to keep the lines open but they have undoubtedly been told by Finance that tough times are ahead.

However, if BE ever pulled off a route that money could be made from, Citylink or Aircoach or somebody would have the option of applying to operate it. Obviously not the case for IE with the exception of someone being mad enough to buy some 1600mm stock and start an ROI-NI service (and negotiate for slots and station access).

IE are in the position of competing against the road companies (and to a limited extent Ryanair/Aer Arann) which makes publishing financial data tricky but holding a total monopoly position over the use of publicly-owned infrastructure. This is why it's an imperative to disengage operations from network, so that the network operator can maintain the trackage to a standard irrespective of whether it's useful to IE or not.

how could you in any way think my sarcastic post was in any way RUIs response? I mean, i even put the word sarcasm up just in case.

we have on many many times pointed out that the only place you'll see the official policy on anything is on the main site. this is a discussion board, nothing else.

as for pailrail, i for one couldnt care less what the hurlers on the ditch think of us. we do things, they dont.

The Tribune - which is generally on the ball on railway matters - is reporting that the entire Limerick Junction - Rosslare section is being earmarked for closure along with the Nenagh branch. :eek:

It seems some secret deal has been trashed out between CIE and the department - they'll close Waterford-Rosslare now and then kill off the other two lines at some point in the near future.

The story isn't online yet but it's on page 2 of their printed edition.

This is the price which will be paid for the Ennis-Athenry line.

As always crude political pressures come out on top.

You would be amazed, I did the numbers

Waterford-Rosslare per year approx 2.4-2.6million

WRC 2.5 million

Hmmm

I've just had a look at the main site and some rubbish about ticketing comes up when you click on Waterford/Rosslare closure - very professional. Now I see you have something up under latest news which I will read before posting again.

I note that if someone wanted to book Limerick-Ballybrophy-Dublin Heuston to bump up their numbers, the booking program doesn't offer those journeys. Interesting...

When Athenry was disconnected, the line was left open as far as Ennis which despite a desperately slow line developed into a half-decent commuter service. IE should be instructed that on no account will they be allowed close the entire Nenagh Branch.

What they should be permitted to do is disconnect Nenagh-Ballybrophy on the understanding that the timetable be recast to reflect the current rail relay and replacement of any remaining jointed rail, with the objective of getting the current 62 minute timing down to something near the 50 minutes the 0745 Nenagh-Henry St bus takes. If more passengers can be attracted in Nenagh by a faster train than would be otherwise forgone, discontinue Birdhill (BE already serves Birdhill on the aforementioned 0745) and save a couple of minutes and some diesel on slowing down/accelerating there.

heres the sunday tribune's piece
http://www.tribune.ie/news/home-news...on-collision-/

FG going on about emissions but in fairness, if IE are operating a 2700 (2-car, not a 2750) over the line, that's 84 tonnes and 117 seats to carry not many people - the passenger/km emissions numbers must be substantial compared to a bus with the same load.

I'd like to make a gentle prediction that 90% of the people who will call for these lines not to be closed won't have actually travelled on them in the last 2 years.

Last Autumn we were visiting a friend in Waterford and took the train from Limerick. It was absolutely woeful. My wife nearly got sick from the ride of the train, and I was feeling fairly ropey too by the time we reached Waterford. It is difficult to describe the snail's pace that this train travels at -- it just feels sort of humiliating. There I was, someone who is generally in favour of rail transport, crawling along watching cars whizzing past on the N24, feeling rotten.

Haven't been between Waterford and Rosslare recently, but I assume it's the same. Went to Nenagh last year and that trip was also completely rotten.

Coming back from Waterford on the bus (it was a Sunday) was a much better experience. We even had a snooze -- not something you'd manage on the train unless you had serious narcoleptic tendencies! I can honestly say that anyone travelling from Limerick to Waterford would be better off getting the bus -- even if there wasn't an interminable wait at the Junction.

CIE/IE have been trying to close these lines for over 30 years. Have a look back at the Oireachtas archive and you'll see countless arguments against their closure.

Those arguments have won the day, for now. But keeping railway lines open because they look good on the map isn't helping anyone if the service is slow, uncomfortable and depressing.

Having said that, the best thing that IE could have done for these train lines is leak that they want to close them. Because that's the only time they ever get discussed. Who knows, one of these days we'll move beyond "don't close" and have a real discussion in this country about what we want those lines on a map to be for.

PS Plumb Loco - your response seems a little over the top there -- all Thomas Stamp was doing was commenting on how IE have been wilfully trying to close the line through poor service -- the same criticism that I presume you would make yourself...

I have travelled on the Waterford - Rosslare once and the Limerick Junc - Waterford twice in recent years

What struck me was the numbers oft quoted of single digit passenger numbers bore no resemblance to the numbers I saw.

The most telling information is during the January cold snap the trains where full as the train offered the only way in to work, that shows there are enough people in the catchment area to make it work. Given the Barrow Bridge advantage there is no faster way from most towns in south Wexford to Waterford

While IE leaking this gets a debate going IE are the least likely organisation to take any form of postive action to address the problems, many of these problems are quite simple marketing and information issues.

The ride isn't the greatest but people have quickly forgotten what 50mph on jointed track was like, that was the standard experience until quite recently. That CWR track is actually quite smooth and the 2700 railcars are the smoothest and quietest of the bunch.

TomB - sorry if you thought my post a bit OTT but I am more than a bit annoyed. I don't know where you get your 90% figure from and I can tell you as somebody who uses the line when possible, lived in a town served by it in the 1980s, it is very difficult to use a service that is not timed to suit anybody but the railway company's employees. If the Dublin/Cork line had a service similar to the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line and accordingly low numbers would you advocate closing it?

Anyway, there's now a Facebook group to save the Waterford/Rosslare line here:http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=...d=367387502018

with an online petition to that fool Minister Noel Dempsey - for all the use it will be - but anyone who cares might as well sign up.

that is exactly what i said. RUI as a body has not got the luxury of being emotive and hot headed on an issue like this. What we do is present a cold hard argument regarding keeping services/standards ect. In that role we often get called upon by local groups and others to help them in their fights and their presentations to Government, TD's and the Stakeholders.

I hope everyone who is a member of RUI or is just a poster like Plumb Loco joins this facebook page and signs the petition. RUI will do its part as well.

Sorry, I probably didn't express that very well -- I wasn't making pot shots at posters here, merely making a wider observation that there will be the inevitable hoo-ha in local and national media about line closures and that lots of people will oppose closure based on the fact that rail lines are A Good Thing without any direct experience of the service in question.

I know ride quality can be very subjective so we'll have to agree to differ on this point. All I can say is that going down by train and back up to Limerick by bus, the bus was more comfortable for us.

My contention is that this debate has been going on for years and years and what we've ended up with for the past 30 years is a line which is kept open (by a thread), loses a lot of money, and which provides a service which isn't very good.

Take a look at this Dáil debate from 1977 -- it feels like absolutely nothing has changed:

http://historical-debates.oireachtas...702220056.html

This is, of course, what bloody annoys me about Ennis-Athenry -- Ballybrophy-Limerick and Rosslare-Limerick Junction are textbook examples of a train service on a single track line providing a rubbish service uncompetitive with bus, yet we're going to do it all over again with Ennis-Athenry.

Mark's point about the comparative costs of Ennis-Athenry versus Junction-Rosslare are interesting -- the tragedy is of course for the price of the two we could have had a decent Junction Rosslare service which would have provided a template for successful 'Regional Rail' in this country


Sure, absolutely. Which presents a dilemma. We all know that a combination of Victorian work practices lower down and a dearth of customer focus higher up results in a rail system that can be woeful and expensive. Which is of course why an organisation like RUI is badly needed -- to give a kick up the behind to IE in both departments.

The genesis of RUI was in the proposed closure of these lines 7 years ago. I'm just wondering aloud whether another situation where the lines are 'saved' would really benefit anyone significantly, if nothing else changes. Could we still be having the same debate in another 30 years?

i would hope so.

I see the real problem of the regional lines being considered as separate entities, considered individually the potential is lower than if viewed as a combined entity, why can't you go from Galway to Rosslare as a single seat journey?

The numbers suggest if the Limerick Junc - Rosslare line got the basic rail safety program work, funds being already committed the extra cost in running a train every 2 hours would be more than offset by the savings from eliminating the manual signal cabins and crossings, resulting in a lower overall cost to provide a much better service. Given the low starting base numbers would grow significantly.

http://www.railusers.ie/news/news.ph...2010&no=2.html

as stated above there is a legal requirement to have a consulatation process, we will be at that.

One of the things that must be a serious cost on the line is the Barrow swing bridge. If New Ross Port was closed as part of a consolidation of the three southeast ports - given that about three quarters of its 2004 tonnage in fertilizer, zinc and oil is no more - then maybe the Barrow Bridge could be jacked up and fixed, as Shannonbridge was?

I can't see any financal benefit, to replace the Barrow bridge would cost a fortune 3 or 4 times the cost of the Shannon bridge project

I'm not familiar with the line at all but I wonder if the government would consider tendering out the operation of the line to a private company. They could take the railcars, subsidy and license from IR and offer them as a package to the operator. Line maintenance would remain with IR and some of the ticket sales would go to the government. Integrated ticketing with the rest of the IR network would be part and parcel because they wouldn't have any control over it.

A private company wouldn't have the baggage of IR and would have a strong incentive to operate a service people would want to use. IR would win because they'd lose a loss making service (but also lose the subsidy). They could probably reduce their costs by making some staff redundant or transferring them somewhere more productive.

I think the ascension of Sean Connick to ministerial rank will do more to concentrate IE's mind than any notional private entrant.

Thats more or less what Irish Rail are trying to do. But the government have yet to put in place the legal requirements to allow it.

Ideally let them take over Galway Rosslare, but someone will have to put up money to pay to run the service.

Money + service specification => contract third party

There may be a transfer of undertakings issue. http://www.employmentrights.ie/en/in...fundertakings/

was it this time last year, or slightly before, that IE flew the "railbus" kite down there?

Slight issue is the bus isn't big enough!

Its routine to see 50-60 on trains between Limerick Junction and Waterford, numbers leaving Waterford to Rosslare can be over 30 on Fridays

Bus can take 20-25 tops

Buy two buses?

If this line was already closed they'd be looking to reopen it, and to justify it they'd propose a sensible timetable.

Those taxi rides / fares are utterly unbelievable. Passengers feel good that they are not emitting additional green house gases by taking the train only to discover that the train crew go home using road transport.

It makes you wonder how many other train crews are using taxis across the network...

I actually think this line is unlikely to close because the more of the western rail line is opened, the more it makes sense to have through trains to Rosslare. With a few more trains a day, and the iniative that's already in place with regard to free rides for all those over 65, this is really good opportunity to encourage visitors to explore Ireland by rail. (You'd even be able to have tourist trains that circumnavigate Ireland from Dublin to Wexford to Waterford to Limerick to Galway to Westport and back to Dublin.)

The logic is for through trains Galway Rosslare, any other country would have them, but as is the practice Irish Rail is trying to kill the route by making it impossible to use

So I'm a private operator. I want to use existing stock - oops, IE have scrapped so much of theirs that their railcars are maxed out. I want to use their tracks - well, I suppose I can trust them to charge me an appropriate amount given that they are a vertical operator. And there's no fear of IE unions refusing to operate signals or sell tickets on my behalf or other similar shenanigans. On top of that, I'm operating on the lines they don't want because they are *******ed/manual signal/manual LCs/all of the above.

Where do I sign?

I would have thought Ballina - Wexford Town would be the long term logical plan. Rail tourism playing a big part, along with Ballina-Waterford freight and other freight flows to help carry the cost.

There is already an under used railway along that route.