Waterford Rosslare to close
 

Its with great regret that I report that the NTA board meeting has just ended and the decision is to close the line

We are waiting on a full statement from the NTA

indeed
http://www.nationaltransport.ie/news.html

http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/...ew&news_id=765

was quick to go up. :rolleyes: So they are going to work with bus eireann now? pity they couldn't have done it when people in dundalk, drogheda were without rail services :mad:

What a farse. Just shows IE can get their way with anything.

amazing to be shutting lines with a Green party in the Governament!

Wheres next then?

Limerick to Ballybrophy?
Waterford to Limerick Junction?
Wexford to Rosslare?

If even Wexford to rosslare.......

What worries me was cies reference to privatising rosslare Limerick and rosslare greystones on morning Ireland earlier today ie wanting a private company to come in.

A tiny bit of positive from this it's Joe ryans comments on boards It's good to see the option of a private company coming in at this stage anyone could do better than ie,

Otherwise a complete an utter farce. Would love to see this being challenged.

Someone mentioned a judicial review may be possible as the method of closing my be unlawful. Is there anyone around with a large wallet willing to pay?

I reckon that the barrow bridge will have a stop order on it fairly fast and that will ensure the line remains closed for ever.

http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=765

haddockman - read the reports. I wonder how much money IE will save in actuality if it keeps to the letter of its commitments to line maintenance.

For the people of South Wexford's sake I would like to see the issue noted with respect to the Passage East ferry resolved. I have taken the ferry (a long time ago) and while I can understand the locals not wanting full size buses through a narrow village, the 28 seater seems like a decent compromise especially when it is a public transport service and not merely a tour bus.

What I regret about the NTA's document is that it did not obligate BE to operate all Waterford services to Waterford Station if coming in along the quay (so far as I can see at any rate). If BE and IE were not "sister companies" you could have seen IE in partnership with a private operator and giving BE a run for their money on Waterford-New Ross-Rosslare. This is not a "replacement service" when it forces a walking transfer to access the rail network.

I have looked through the NTA’s report, and the thing that strikes me is that they are repeating some of the flawed logic behind the arguments originally used for closing railways. They don’t seem to have some of the basic expertise in how the market for public transport works (but then, at lot of people haven’t).

The theory was always that buses could do the job adequately at lower cost. The NTA are using the same old arguments about buses being more flexible and having lower running costs – now they can add to that by saying there will be less emissions. What actually happened in the past was that less people used the replacement bus, since some now went by car and others travelled less often. So the result was more car journeys, less travelling overall, and perhaps not even a saving in public funds.

Connecting traffic on the adjoining lines was also lost. Closures undermined the system as a whole. See how the NTA were dismissive of the SERA’s including the whole route to Limerick Junction in their study – which shows that they don’t realise how inter-dependent each line is on its adjoining lines. (I have elaborated on this in Galway <---> Limerick: The slowest train in Europe? #15.)

Do you notice that the same arguments about buses being cheaper and more flexible, and the roads being so much better now, could be used to justify the closure of many other lines in Ireland? And I don’t just mean Galway-Limerick; on several of the radial routes their line of reason would justify replacement by buses.

There are also implications for introducing frequent train services where there is already a parallel bus route. Trains and buses tend to develop distinct but overlapping markets, because trains have a better record at getting people out of their cars. The growth in inter-city buses hasn’t destroyed the market for the parallel railways – even when the buses are faster.

Notice the contrast: the NTA’s argument is that buses will do the existing train’s job adequately. The SERA focuses on untapped potential (as we have been doing). We could put the question this way: since increased frequency has been so successful on other routes (both rail and bus), why single out certain routes for not getting an increased frequency? If you say that the radial routes are obvious cases whereas Rosslare-Waterford isn’t, then I would say that today’s high frequencies on other routes (hourly or two-hourly) would have been dismissed as ridiculous 40 years ago. “Where would you find the passengers,” people would ask mockingly.

I write this because the NTA is obviously not familiar with these lines of reason. This isn’t surprising; anyone familiar with economics and business generally, but not experienced in public transport, is likely to hold the same set of mistaken assumptions that led to the earlier closures. We have job on our hands educating people about this.

Meanwhile, on the matter of the closure notice: IR are planning to go ahead with the closure on the basis of their earlier notice. I understand that the details of the alternative bus service are a legal part of the notice. Now they say they are entering negotiations with BE. Are they not legally obliged to go with the timetable they have already announced, or else issue a new notice and wait two months? Does anyone know?

A point no one has mentioned: at present I reckon that the train from Rosslare also runs the 12.30 Waterford to Limerick Junction and its return journey at 15.10. What will happen to these?

I don't think it's time to give up yet. There could still be pressure at political level.

But has Rosslare-Waterford got much better? While a few short sections of road have been widened, there has been no major improvement since the Wexford Bypass, opened about 1988. Although the Waterford Bypass does marginally affect things as less traffic is coming in through Ferrycarraig. There is the issue though that traffic expands to fill available road capacity.

On Morning Ireland the Information Minister rubbished the notion that more services builds ridership.

Hopefully, the 2700 gets redeployed to a Carlow-Waterford commuter or Clonmel-Waterford commuter and continues as before. (Preferably not sitting on its ass in Waterford for 3 hours).

However, the Limerick Junction-Waterford section is cleared for 3 car 22Ks so maybe one of the Dublin-Waterford sets gets used pending the next swing of the axe.

http://irishrail.ie/news_centre/news.asp?action=view&news_id=900

Waterford to Rosslare Closure
 

Very bad new indeed. The commitment to maintain this line in order that it could be reopened if conditions improve. Does that mean letting the line deteriorate to the condition of the Midleton - Youghal line. In which case the whole line would have to be rebuilt at great cost. Is there a commitment to send a weed killing train down the line to keep it clear of weeds. Why have I.E. given up on trying to attract frieght to the railway? Why no attempt to trial a decent timetable on this line and others? Do they not take into account the green benefits of railways. If Railways were run strictly on profit and loss there would be little or no railways left. This is one of Irelands most scenic lines, why no thought given to heritage use. What a boost for tourism. No thinking outside the box.

I would actually say the closure is not really a matter of profit and loss. Comparing income and revenue for one part of the system is misleading, because it doesn't take into account the inter-dependence of all parts of the rail network.

If IR were really commercially competent, they would run a more frequent service on the whole corridor from Rosslare to Galway, so that each part would contribute connecting passengers to the radial lines from Dublin. That could well cover the fixed costs associated with running these lines.

It is sad to see that in 2010 there are still people who will quote income and revenue figures for separate parts of the system, and fool some people into thinking that taxpayers' money is being saved by the closure. This is deceptive, and should really be called fraudulent accounting.

Here's a thought. If an independent company gets to run the line, they will presumably run trains to suit connections with IR trains at Waterford (for both lines). IR will benefit, whether they like it or not!

i don't think thwere will be many (and less in the future) passengers willing to take a stopping train in the wrong direction only to stand on a cold platform waiting for a connection when they could stay in their cars and get there quicker AND cheaper. The Motorway Age will be a big problem for many Irish Rail lines.

If there is a decent and frequent timetable, proper connections to the rest of the network then people will use the line. Just because there are motorways that does not mean that everyone will dersert the railways. If however, there is a sparse timetable, trains that run at times that are not convenient for the traveller and poor conections then that sort of thing will drive passengers to their cars. We must not give up on this line or the railways in general. If they are Properly run and managed thet will prove their worth. These lines survived the 1970's and 80's when railways were not in vogue and were unappreciated by many people. I can't believe that lines are being closed in this so called green age. No one has made any real effort to run or promote this line properly. Not only is the line a vital part of the network but also very scenic, think tourism, think a regular steam hauled special like that run in the Highlands of Scotland. To agument the regular service. Also the amount of frieght carried on the network is an absolue discrace.

Freight: well, what flows would you suggest there might be over this line?

As far as I can see , freight works best with a bulk haul over a long distance.Ireland has neither of these as being an island the distance to the nearest port is very small and the capital is roughly half way up the country.With the rapidly improving roads, Trucks are becoming even more likely to be used instead of Rail.

Passenger: the flows that Rail does best are Commuter services (mostly Dublin with limited scope in Cork and maybe elsewhere) and InterCity, which in Ireland means Dublin to Cork and Belfast and a limited scope for Dublin to Galway Limerick Waterford and Sligo .Limited? well yes, with single track you are never going to compete with Motorways;even Cork and Belfast services won't match them

Lots of people don't have cars (or may have their car unavailable) and have to use a train no matter how good the road is.
People who want to drink can't (shouldn't) drive and would like a train bring them home.
Cities and towns have finite car space, if everybody drives there they wont all fit in.
Its nice to go on holidays without the expense of airport parking
Tourists dont always hire cars.

There are many reasons why people have to use railways.

Railways are not in competition with motorways.
Countries with better motorways than Ireland typically have have better railways.
Some African countries have a policy of not improving roads parrallell to major railroutes (Trans-Gabon and the Dakar-Bamako railway spring to mind) this has not detered people that have cars from driving or led to a fantasic rail service.

A frequent well timetabled route with good onward connections is what makes a railway work.

When IE announced said they were withdrawing passenger services on the route my feeling was they already had as 6 return Trains per week does not constitute a service.

From the perspective of somebody who practically lives on the Sligo line, but who has never used the Rosslare - Waterford line, it does appear to me that Irish Rail have basically willfully wound this service up and have been building the business case since the beet trains ended.

Freight is now a red herring - it doesn't exist in any meaningful quantity anymore apart from the odd bulk service.

If you look at the Sligo line, what has made a massive difference is the two-hour service. 10 or 15 years ago, it was the default choice to drive to Dublin city centre from Longford, but this is no longer true. We now have a service every 2 hours and in the morning and evening peaks, the gap is less than an hour. Irish Rail were very clever over the last couple of years with the attention grabbing 10 euro day returns which got people onto the trains. Once people get into the habit, they will quite willingly pay the normal 25 euro day return and sit down with a paper and a cup of coffee.

If you compare the Waterford/Rosslare service, it appears to me that the same strategy would at least have been worth a try. Yes, Waterford station is in an awkward place, but Dublin Connolly isn't exactly convenient for the hospitals or south city centre shopping districts which are the main destinations for day trippers. Irish Rail have obviously decided the (relatively) high-frequency approach works given that they have adopted the same idea on the WRC.

But to test this approach woudl have required getting the operational costs of the line in order. Irish Rail have concluded (correctly in my opinion) that the only way to keep the service running is to automate signalling and level crossings and get the staffing levels down. This is what is happening on the Sligo line.

Now if it had been three or four years ago, it would have been a simple matter to go an ask the Brians to get the checkbook out. But this is out of the question now. The writing is on the wall for all infrastructural investment beyond keeping the lights on and there is no way that anybody is going to start investing millions into a service with a proven revenue base barely stretching into six figures. There was also the matter of the fact that a lot of the line needed renewing.

So this year, rightly or wrongly, the Irish Rail subsidy was cut and they needed to find a few million to keep the system running. So they shut down the lowest revenue and highest cost part of the system.

It is a sad end and one hopes that they will maintain it to the extent that it can be started up again in a few years if there is a few quid to spend. It would certainly be have been preferable to invest in the rail service than building a white elephant of a motorway to Waterford where the traffic level is so low that it isn't economically viable to man a toll booth. But the money is spent now and what's done is done.

Those of us who depend on the Sligo can count our lucky stars that the bulk of the automation work is done because if the Sligo service was still performing the same as it was back in the early 90's, we would have been waving goodbye to it as well.

Railways sure as eggs ARE in competition with Motorwyas and if they donbt buck up their ideas and improve their services they are going to be on a downward spiral.

Freight On The Railways
 

Whilst very few freight operations would be possible without a subsidy. Remember Railways have a disadvantage of having to maintain their infrastructure whilst lorries do not. A subsidy helps to close this disadvantage. There are many reasons why it is better to move freight from the roads to the railways. Air polution, congestion and for green issues. One freight train takes many lorry loads off the roads. It was mentioned that the single track limits train movements & limits the scope for expansion. Better timetabling and investments in passing loops and dualing the busier sections would partly aleviate this problem. If some of the vast amounts of money that was spent on these motorways had been spent on the rail network then it would have been in much better shape to compete

Only if going from one railhead to another, only if it's okay that it all go at once, and only if it's okay to delay it in transit to allow priority to passenger traffic. Even semistates like An Post and Bord na Mona which you would think could be leaned on no longer use mainline freight rail.

Its not as simple as one freight train equals so many lorries.

The freight will have to be delivered to the railhead (by truck as often as not) and loaded. This takes time. Whilst the first wagon is being loaded, the truck that brought it to the railhead could have be on its way to destination and so could all the other trucks so that by the time the 40th truck has discharged into the rail wagon , the first lorry might nearly have arrived. The same applies when the freight train arrives at destination only to take time unloading into lots of trucks for possibly many destinations, to which the original Lorries could of course have gone to directly.This is a disadvantage only countered by long distances, of which there arent any in Ireland as already said..

Add to this that there really arent any bulk flows of goods available for rail to move anyway and the conclusion is rail freight is a dead duck.

I have to disagree, name one country that has better rail services then Ireland that doesn't have far better motorway infrastructure.

despite the road improvements to Sligo

Other countries are not that relevant here. They tend to be more populous if they have better rail and motorway.

In any case I nominate the UK. Try to find a motorway from Reading to Birmingham (ie second busiest provincial station to first busiest.) You would either have to travel as far as Oxford on second rate A road or use M4 to join A34 (trunk road, more or less a motorway) to Oxford again...the long way round

Most of the main irish routes now ahve or soon will have paralell motorways.

What? Reading to Birmingham is grade-separated dual carriageway the whole way: M4, A34, M40 is a direct route. Britain's motorway and dual carriageway network is comprehensive, and long distance buses are not really popular there - they are seen as only an option for very tight budgets.

Cars are not a huge threat to the rail service, as people who drive a lot don't take the train now, and never did before, and the number of cars in Ireland is not growing.

However, fast, cheap, bus services ARE a threat, especially as they are cheap. But they are not faster than the train on any route yet, and trains will still miles ahead on comfort. Train travel has not suffered a bigger loss then other public transport numbers in this recession yet.

Although, some countries have protected their train service from buses - it's illegal to run intercity bus services in Germany, for example. Not that I would advocate this here.

It is not a direct route...you have to drive 20 miles west before heading North. Noone, except for trucks who are obliged too, uses that route.

I enjoy the relaxing train journey but it doesnt go from where I am to where I want to be like my car does , it takes longer (and a lot longer as more mways open) and it costs a lot more. I can also bring passengers with me for free. No contest Im afraid and my point is that a lot more people will be following that path as they realise the train is not quicker, not cheaper and not easier.

Wrong are you telling me that what works in many other countys wont work here? These larger populations are not homogunous and these countries have lots of sparsley populated regions and what about Luxembourg its smaller then Ireland

Wrong. The Uk has both a better rail and motorway network then Ireland.

All countries with better railways than Ireland have better motorways, in fact the railways thrive despite all the motorways.

Contrary to what IE would have us believe it is not Motorways that kill railways, it is poor frequencys, usless timetables and shoddy services.

Cork Dublin route is the busiest in the country despite most of the road between the two being motorway. Whats the number of the motorway between Waterford and Rosslare? I cant seem to find it, in fact its the one route in Ireland where the railway is substansially shorter.

Car journeys are nearly always quicker and cheaper everywhere else as well yet the railways are busy

My point is that people who have cars have always done this, and so, are not going to be the cause of an exodus of train passengers.

I have told you already my opinion that ireland is different to most countries because of its popualtion spread (lack of it really)and I have demonstrated as requested one example where the rail route is better than a motorway route.SO Im not wrong thanks.

Cork to Dublin is an hourly 7 coach train.It may be the busiest in the country but it isnt anywhere near full on most journeys.

My point of course is not the status quo but the future. Rail will not be able to hold its market share, never mind increase it where it is slower and more expensive than driving.this is what I said before "if they dont buck up their ideas and improve their services they are going to be on a downward spiral."

You paint a very depressing picture of the railways and their future! However, with sensible investment, proper timetabling and most of all promotion of the services provided, there could be a much better future. One forgets that oil is running out and the cost of fuel spirals ever upwards rail travel will hopefully become more of an attractive option for travellers. Nobody seems bothered about Green issues. Railways are by far the greenest form of travel. On the roads there are hundreds of cars with just one person in them. Is it not sensible to entice at least some of these people on to a train that carries perhaps hundreds of people doing the same journey. About freight I am not proposing that we should go back to the days of a locomotive hauling 3 wagons down a branch line, but is it not sensible to have good look at wether at least some extra feight could be transported by rail. Other countries are doing this. There is still scope for reopening mothballed commuter lines. e.g. Midleton - Youghal. Which would have also have the benefit of bringing tourists to and reviving what is a very pleasant resort. Good for new jobs and new business start ups. Single track railways can have a more extensive service. In the South West of England The 40 mile single line from Exeter to the small town of Barnstaple pop. 20K has 12 trains each way daily with only two passing loops and has had much increased useage in recent years despite being very rural and the intermeadiate stations producing small amounts of passengers. It is well marketed with special offers even though the journey time is fairly slow approx 1hr 5 mins and the rolling stock is quite old.

yes thats what Im saying..."must try harder"

iknowwhereiamgoing - any expansion of freight beyond trivial changes will require government support. If it's not happening under a green govt, and it's not, when will it?

The same is true for most trains in other countries. What has led to the closing of Waterford Rosslare is how its been run full stop.

And Luxembourg? they have better motorways, better trains lower population, only one city and a rural population in mountainous terrain.

Get off the IR mindset that motorways kill rail, they dont, its just easier to blame something else instead of looking at your own shortcomings.

oh right so...its not the motorways that are a threat to IE, Its me.....!!!!

My point throughout is that IE need to wake up and smell the maxpax if they are going to fight Motorway competition. I won't take the train 9 times out 0f 10 because its slower and dearer and I've already paid for my car., and thats on "the busiest route in the country". What chance do the various even slower single lines have to compete once the chips are down?

Whichever way you cut it, motorways will slowly drain the passengers from InterCity.An example, one of my daughters went to Dublin not long ago and my son offered to drive her, saved her money and had a free day out in Dublin.

I don't know if you're referring to Irish bus services, but if you are, you're wrong I'm afraid. Dublin-Galway can be done by bus in just over 2 hours. Dublin-Belfast can be done by bus in a very competitive time than with the train service, runs hourly, it doesn't get bombed, takes you to the city centre in Belfast, and is a fraction of the price.

Tomorrow will be a very sad day in Irish Rail's history.

Have Hope For The Future Of The Railways
 

My, this is all so depressing!! Other countries have had express buses and trains in competition, The train is almost always the more expensive, but most people continue to prefer the train. I know I would rather spend three hours on a train than two on a bus any day. The railways need investment to increase line speeds but also good timetables and conections with feeder lines and other forms of transport. Most people take buses for their cheaper prices rather than for any other reason. Most people enjoy train travel but how many feel the same about bus or coach travel. Someone mentioned that in Germany that long distance coach services were not allowed to compete with the railways Perhaps that should be considered here, but only after proper investment in the railways in both infrastructure, timetabling and a more adventurous fares policy. The railways are important for the future, don't give up on them, fight for investment. Lift this dark cloud.

Sorry, but buses are reserved for the "sister company". Try walking into Heuston next week and asking for a ticket to Campile via Plunkett.