DARTs, Luas and Dublin bus to be rebranded?
 

Dublin Bus feeling off-colour again.

Apparently, the DTA is to have some real teeth, and the whole enchilada, from buses to Luaii to the DART, is to have a total makeover to a unfied branding, to at least give the appearance of a unified system.

Would kick ass if it were true. Is it too early to yell "BVG here we come?" :cool:

changing the paint whilst Rome burns is a cod. same as re-branding t21 for several hundred thousand euros.

it's an outragious and disgusting waste of taxpayers money and it means nothing. zilch. nada. all it gets is Demspey a photo op. this country is a disgrace.

Good news is the entire DART fleet is due a paint within the next 2-3 years so its not too bad, only on the second paint job in 24 years

Dublin bus however have gone from orange to green to blue to yellow all in the same time

What odds we end up back with the 1984/1960's lime green routine?

With respect, I disagree.

Integration is an essential part of a transport service, I remember when I visited Germany I was very impressed with the transport systems in Munich and Berlin, particulrly Berlin's BVG, not just with the fact that they had trains everywhere thought that helped) but the fact that everything went under the authority branding, and I had an extensive choice of all-modes tickets.

It just seemed to be a single system, even though there may have been dozens of companies actually involved in the service, I would be hard pressed to name any of them other than perhaps Deutsche Bahn.

This sort of thing is important for a city travel system, particularly for new/occasional users. Someone who just wants to get from A to B with a minimum of hassle and doesn't really care who operates what or what their fares policies, this that or the other is.

Doing something similar in Dublin is NOT "changing the paint whilst Rome burns" because Rome ain't exactly on fire. Investment is accelerating, new lines are to be opened for the DART, Luas and Metro, while the Interconnector will bring it all together. There is some certainty of these things happening so the cost of a bit of paint is very little in the grand scheme of things.

To be honest, I have to agree with Thomas. I hate to be down on the DTA bill, but I don't trust the Government to deliver a proper organisation in the DTA. And its purely because of past performance on other issues. HSE anyone?

Rebranding and uniformity are great. It looks good and is in use all over the world. But a lick of paint doesn't make an integrated system. If they announced at the end of the entire process of integration that they were going to rebrand, then that would be the logical last step.

The fact that they are going to do this first, gives me the sinking feeling that this will be the first and last step. Its a compromise between the big players who will then continue to call the shots on their own modes independent of everyone else.

It's a good idea in the long run to co-brand everything but it's so hugely expensive that they should concentrate on things that really matter like integration in planning (routes, stops, etc) and ticketing. When that works, then they can bring out the crayons - the buses and trains will naturally need re-painting at that stage anyway so it's not wasting money.

I'm with Sean on this and believe common branding should be an early and integral part of the process of change. People should be familiar asap of the DTA's actual existence and a DTA brand is the easiest way to achieve that.

Personally I would advocate simply adopting the Dublin Bus scheme and changing the logo to DTA as the Dublin Bus fleet is clearly the biggest and it makes sense to repaint as few vehicles/stops as possible. It's also not bad on the eye.

Failing that, I would like a simple scheme of all blue like Munich. Cheap and cheerful but does the job.

Paint can only be done during scheduled downtime

Much as we would all love a all singing and dancing fleet wide coverage on day 1 it ain't going to happen and if Irish Rail think pulling a lump of the fleet so they are painted quicker is going to win them points they are going to feel our wrath as that will mean short trains

Get a simple vinyl transfer and slap it on the side, bingo you can get the DTA logo on the entire fleet in a matter of days and handle the repaint in the normal cycle

Average joe commuter doesn't care if its painted pink, blue or some other horrible colour

1. Is it on time?
2. Does it have a seat?
3. Is it comfortable?

Paint doesn't come into it

Have to say, I think it's a good idea. Single colour, single brand, get it into people's heads. Sure, do it in the normal cycle, weekends... whatever, but I think it's very important that people see all the different operators acting as a single system.

Sure, paint is cheap and won't solve our peoblems, but I'd be more worried if the DTA were saying they were NOT going to do this!

maybe if Noel Dempsey's department applied a few of their resources to allowing public transport companies run services to serve the citizens of Dublin in a reasonable timeframe and in a reasonable manner ( 41N through m50 tunnel is awaiting clearance for over a year, bus route from Dalkey to Dublin Airport is awaiting a license for over 18 months, CIE companies were not allowed introduce a simpler fare structure at the time of the euro changeover, despite closing the dart lines for over a year at weekends and receiving full planning permission to make all dart stations accessible, the DOT instead of making IE implement this, remove the statement that all dart stations are accessible from transport21)

or maybe if Noel Dempsey's department planned to introduce competition in public transport for the citizens of the country instead of for the providers of public transport.

Or maybe if Noel Dempsey cared enough to give citizens a bit more protection than Irish Rails Charter [1]

or maybe if Noel Dempsey actually gave the rpa a kick in the rear over their chronic under estimation of the demand for their trams services instead of [2] investigating if a longer tram would help...

Then maybe an auld paintjob might do something.

[1] http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp...g=ENG&loc=2274
[2]http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=10523&lang=ENG&loc=2274

If people see that all modes ae the same colour, they'll question why the same ticket can't be used on all.

People already ask that question

I'm really not so sure they do Mark. I mean people beyond here and boards>commuting etc. People are so used to requiring different tickets that they don't question it.

Philip, you are correct, its in our Psyche. However as a Rail Users Organisation, it is up to us to question it.

Value for Money is going to become a big question in the coming years, and so it should. We've had it good for a long time now, but now we are maturing as an economy. So people and us, and I hope the opposition, will ask questions as to what we have achieved from expenditure.

In the case of the DTA, we can only hope that its more than just a Paint Job and a Photo Op.

If it is a Paint Job, it will look good in 2012 when the election comes around. But what you have to say when the FF TD comes around, and in particular to people living in Meath West, is did you really spend MY money properly?

What is the point of this?

There was a glorious time, back from 1988 till 1992 when all the buses and the DARTS were the same colour. Big bloody deal.

As is usual, here comes Paul Daniels with his magic box and there's nothing in it. It's the same codology as before. Remarkably, the irish indo used a stock picture of the AV's lined up in Dublin Castle with Trasport 21 on their destination displays. Those buses, of course, were't purchased through T21, they were purchased through the fare box.

The ironing of it was delicioius.

Get a proper intigrated system in, with one authority with one board, one chairperson - then waste your time on paint. Why is branding so important when all your doing is publicising three monopolies anyway? What we'll end up with is the same BAC, IE and Connex boards, answering to the same CIE/RPA boards, and somewhere alongside will be the new DTA board. The same happened in 1988 with CIE same happened with the HSE.

Maybe tis wonderful authority will get DASH2 started. Maybe it'll ask why we're blowing millions on an intrgrated ticketing system and gosh even put one in place. No, it's like Douglas Adams and the Golafrinchams. They like the concept of fire, they just havent agreed on the colour of it yet.

The DTA have been tasked with is to create a brand for Dublin transport services, we assume that means that means a common logo, common signage and so on

If we look at a city with good transport, say Paris or the Paris region Ile-de-France, transport is mainly SNCF and RATP, do the metro trains share the same livery as the RER trains nope (RATP operate some RER services, SNCF others). Different liveries can in fact be important to distinguish different types of service

If we look at London, they are not repainting the trains on the new London Overground service into the new colours since there are new trains on order and the old ones are not worthy of representing the organisation

Problem with paint is its political show, it provides a tangible and public record that something is happening, but doesn't mean the service is any better, its just like the bus photo, look we go more buses, of course the fact 50 plus sat in a yard in Broadstone for nearly a year due to the Department of Transport is never mentioned

Indeed there are probably plenty of examples of cities with a multitude of liveries with a decent network. Personally I like the German model:
Local operator is usually same for busses/trams/underground/ferries/cable cars etc. which are generally the same livery while a daughter Deutsche Bahn company runs the S-Bahn which is red nationwide (except S-Bahn Berlin GmbH, which uses a hybrid livery which is red and yellow, yellow being the dominant colour for the local operator, BVG).

German public transport is bloated beyond belief with managers and admin. But it works because they all understand that they are part of a system and must deliver their little bit or it all falls apart.

Berlin has at the top, the VBB (the tariff setting body for Berlin and the state of Brandenburg), below this are the operators BVG, DB Berlin, etc. but of course BVG is a wholly owned company of the city of Berlin! DB Berlin is a wholly owned subsidiary of DB AG which in turn is a wholly owned company of the German government all of which have a distinct board of management/directors (all sounds a bit familiar doesn't it). Now, despite all this they work together and take direction from the VBB. The german minister for transport doesn't stick his oar in at every opportunity and everyone works together. THERE IS NO REASON THIS CAN'T HAPPEN IN DUBLIN if the DTA is backed by strong legislation and money.

+1

A simple visible DTA logo is all that is needed.

Instead of waisting cash re-painting, there should be the re-naming of the different lines.

For example, Luas we have the Red and Green line. Later we'll have (probably) the yellow (lucan), purple (Liffey Jtn, hopefully Finglas) (pick whatever colour you want), the metro has north, west, (maybe south later) and the Dart, A and B (maybe).

A simple colour/number code system is needed like you see in Madrid.

All this outrage is just stupid. This entire thread is based on the premise that a riciculously inaccurate and poorly researched article in the Independent is true. I entirely agree that government policy, political interference and shirking of responsibility have resulted in the mess that is Dublin's public transport system and the agencies that run it.

But the idea that developing a single Dublin Transport brand is somehow underhand and vote-seeking is ludicrous. People don't vote for Ken Livingstone because the Underground, DLR and London Buses use the same logo. I very much doubt that the DTA is going to demand that public transport providers use a single livery. It would probably generate negative publicity if anything.

A single brand would be excellent. More importantly a single information scheme would be excellent and would encourage uptake of public transport. Yes, the system's a shambles. But that's no reason why people shouldn't be given decent information on how to use what's there. A united brand, website and system for the display of information would be a huge step forward. With integrated ticketing, obviously.

I'm actually quite disappointed by the reaction of RUI committee members in this regard. I thought lack of information was one of RUI's major complaints with Irish Rail.

The problem is the paint scheme is a political potato its probably the easiest way to sell the we created a DTA and look its doing something when in fact will be several years before it gets seriously going and even then thats assuming the politicians will leave it to do its job, the last DTA lasted little more than a year until the politicians killed it

The whole problem with the paint scheme is it will require the removal from service of trains for painting resulting in a reduction in service levels, that is utterly unacceptable and will be resisted with all available force, trains are painted in a specific order after a certain number of years has passed no problem with that however there is a chance political pressure will come to bear to massively accelerate this process to the determent of the passenger. No one has a problem with the concept of a common livery once it is applied during the routine painting of all the trains/buses/trams and so on, anything beyond that is unacceptable

Of course you will find excellent integrated transport in europe without a everything carrying a common colour scheme

Regardless of the accuracy of the article it makes a solid point that this random changing of colour scheme as is particularly practiced by Dublin Bus is going to cost money, money which of course could be better spent on improving the service, which will actually improve our lot as passengers.

I go along with what Eoin says in terms of creating a brand, when you see RATP you know you will get reliable convenient transport in Paris.

This single brand should be the umbrella and it's owners (DTA) should be the lightning rod for all criticism of transport in Dublin, as well as the driving force for real change.

Having a single recognisable brand lets the public know there is an Authority, and not just a shambolic fuzzy cloud of stakeholders / operators / vested interests.

TFL have excellent branding also, despite the huge array of operators and stakeholders. They have adapted the underground logo very effectively, and their oyster card is a must have in London.

While I don't agree with painting all the buses / trains / trams the same colour I think the single bus colour is a symbol of very good management of bus franchising in London, but my main point is that a single strong brand should be a symbol of an integrated system (initially it should symbolise the drive to achieve this integration).

Single Authority - Single Integrated Ticket - Single recognisable logo.

Except the DTA will be subject to ministerial direction. The proof of the pudding is how often (or not) it is used.

Numbers are better than colours or letters, less confusion.Since the CitySwift / Expresso situation*, DB have only repainted buses about once each in their useful (DB) lives.



* CitySwift and Expresso were created as separate brands to highlight the introduction of QBCs. However, problems arose when buses were moved between services.

Unity of information = good

Intgrated ticketing = good

painting everything the same colour without that being done first = pointless

Information provision has nothing to do with paint schemes.

Yes, but putting the logo before anything is actually done is just a trick.

I agree entirely, and even when unified information and ticketing have been brought in, it will still be pointless. My point is that I don't think Dempsey or the DTA actually are going to instigate a repaint.

Maybe I picked up on this wrongly, but I detected a general sentiment against a single brand, based on a false claim that it would involve painting buses and trains. Obviously information and ticketing are the most important issues, but a single brand for them is pretty important too.

A simple brand is important. 100% agree with you.

But the priority of this is all wrong. The function of the DTA comes first.

For various reasons, some people here and elsewhere believe that the DTA and Government will use the paint job to give the impression that the system is integrated without it actually being so.

My reason is I don't trust the Government to do the right thing. They have failed in the past in transport and other area. I had hoped that this would be different and they would deliver whats needed.

But when they talk about rebranding first, it smacks of:

"Oh look at us, the colours are lovely, aren't we great".

And in 2012, "we delivered an integrated transport system, aren't we great".

Integrated is when you get off your train in Navan and buses will be meet the train to go to various parts of Navan and its surronds, and you need just one ticket.

If this Government was able to think long term (which they are unable to do) they would realise that a rebrand could happen over time through end of life and maintenance of the trains/buses etc.

Branding should be on the tickets first and foremost. This will be visible to everybody instantly. It will also put pressure on the DTA to get integrated ticketing up and running because they will be seen as being responsible for tickets.

Below I've attached an example of an RER ticket I recently bought in the Paris region. The ticket was issued by the RATP. The transport authority is called the STIF. Note that the ticket has no date as I haven't validated it yet. I can hold onto this ticket for years and it should still work the day I decide to use it.

The article's been fairly well taken to pieces over on boards/commuting + transport

Why not strip the paint off everything, clear varnish and make everything 1950's retro... oh maybe re-instate the "Snail" logo for all transport... In London their heritage routes operate full services!

Given the flying snail actually predates CIE and was the Dublin United Transport Company logo it would be perfect for a logo and save all the money on consultants

Obviously all over green is a no no on accessibility grounds since doors need to contrast, bit of green, grey and some black as the London Midland use in the UK works very well

Bear in mind suburban trains have been painted green here going back as far as the 1830's

I love heritage... Cough... Now change it and stop making a fuss - if they want everything to work well maybe William Martin Murphy might have a great grand child willing to come on board to CIE :eek:

But seriously if anyone wants change... don't ask Fine Fail... after all Fail is in their name

Just had a look at the DUTC logo and it looks good. Don't think there's any need to rebrand everything though, just stick a DTA logo on the side off everything.