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-   -   [article] Marketing executive awarded 16k after Trinity Ball revellers step into mid (http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=15664)

Mark Gleeson 01-02-2018 18:48

[article] Marketing executive awarded 16k after Trinity Ball revellers step into mid
 
https://www.independent.ie/irish-new...-36554981.html
Quote:

A 26-year-old marketing executive has been awarded 16,000 for being falsely imprisoned by Irish Rail staff after she demanded the name of one employee and took his photograph on the night of the Trinity Ball in 2013.


ACustomer 02-02-2018 11:26

I think the unfortunate Irish Rail employee should have got the monetary award, given the abuse directed at him. How can Irish Rail enforce compliance with ticketing requirements given (a) the lack of something like a railway police and (b) daft courts giving daft awards.

Thomas J Stamp 07-02-2018 10:50

I find it surprising that in this day and age of licenced security staff and full-time revenue collectors for Irish rail that this sort of case can still happen. the law on what constitutes illegal detention is not new and you would assume that its lesson one for these guys.

this person was illegally detained. then in its defence, the company tired to blacken her name instead of admitting liability, which the judge dismissed. what the other people were up to is not relevant to this case.

we are in constant e-mail correspondence with passengers who have suffered very heavy-handed actions from IE staff and we are in correspondence with IE itself on this issue. There appears to be a presumed guilty approach and when mixed with an odd sense from revenue protection staff that its literally their money things can get very emotional and be upsetting very quickly.

In almost every complaint we have seen there is simply a mix-up at work and honest mistakes by people who are long-standing users of the service and who pay their fares day in day out but who are treated like hardened criminals by staff. There is also a marked similarity in the nature of complainants, mostly women and female students (in fact I am trying hard to remember the last adult male one we had, perhaps Mark can jog my memory).

we are aware of several other court actions.

Jamie2k9 08-02-2018 08:39

Case to be appealed on 5 March.

Mark Gleeson 09-02-2018 16:44

Have to say I wasn't paying attention to the emails enough to spot there is a heavy bias as to female vs male. Not enough data to suggest anything

However the emails we get a nearly always clear and detailed, yes I didn't have a ticket but I was treated poorly, shouted at and not given a fair hearing.

As Tom says can't say much more as several who have been in contact with us have indicated that they were planning to go the legal avenue with IE

Jamie2k9 10-02-2018 12:28

Males are probally more than likely to just pay the fine and move on rather than make a major issue. Regardless of RPU actions in general, the ruling in this case for someone sticking her nose in a joke. No wonder insurance costs sky rocker when such foolish decisions are made.

On the subject of fines, I agree some are genuine mistakes. Perhaps IE should consider moving to a system like Luas where the majority get 45 as opposed to 100 fine which is usually at the discretion of the officers issuing the fine. From experience of seeing people on the Luas, more often than not people accept it and there is no attitude issues for the most part where as 100 causes problems.

Thomas J Stamp 14-02-2018 12:52

believe it or not, you are allowed to "stick your nose in", as we often hear when there are stories of people being attacked followed by replies of "everyone just walked by, why didn't they help out"

in the case under appeal, the award was for false imprisonment as she was detained in an effort to get her to delete a photograph. Again, an irish rail official is an ordinary Joe same as you or I with the same powers and lack of them. if this isnt a false imprisonment then it means that i can pin you to a wall next time i see you taking a pic of me in the street and legally demand you delete it.

this isnt a case where the IE man was asking the lady for her ticket or other things he is lawfully entitled to do.

it would be interesting to see if this is to get to a high court hearing or is quietly settled.

Thomas J Stamp 14-02-2018 12:53

Quote:

a system like Luas where the majority get 45 as opposed to 100 fine which is usually at the discretion of the officers issuing the fine. From experience of seeing people on the Luas, more often than not people accept it and there is no attitude issues for the most part where as 100 causes problems.
We get complaints about LUAS as well.

Speaking of which -and anecdotal evidence is the worst kind - there are a lot of complaints on twitter in the last month of fainting on the green line in the morning peak. Cant remember seeing that many before.

Jamie2k9 14-02-2018 16:59

Quote:

believe it or not, you are allowed to "stick your nose in", as we often hear when there are stories of people being attacked followed by replies of "everyone just walked by, why didn't they help out"
I think a degree of reality here needed here, yes RPU will be harsh (perhaps a bit to much) but those people in the wrong (mistake or not) are often not as polite as they may be in an email to RUI.

Quote:

in the case under appeal, the award was for false imprisonment as she was detained in an effort to get her to delete a photograph. Again, an irish rail official is an ordinary Joe same as you or I with the same powers and lack of them. if this isnt a false imprisonment then it means that i can pin you to a wall next time i see you taking a pic of me in the street and legally demand you delete it.

this isnt a case where the IE man was asking the lady for her ticket or other things he is lawfully entitled to do.

it would be interesting to see if this is to get to a high court hearing or is quietly settled
Don't really care about the case but rather the 16,000, thankfully IE have decided to appeal and whatever happens hopefully the outcome will mean a much lower pay out.

Quote:

We get complaints about LUAS as well.
Of course you do. Reality is passengers are in the wrong 90% of the time so they just need to deal with it.

Quote:

Speaking of which -and anecdotal evidence is the worst kind - there are a lot of complaints on twitter in the last month of fainting on the green line in the morning peak. Cant remember seeing that many before.
Yes since the LCC opened G Line frequency has been reduced and extra trams are going into service only now.

If its not that its delays all day on one or both lines and they have had no real time in most stations for the last week or so.

Mark Gleeson 15-02-2018 11:41

I've witnessed the RPU try the heavy treatment routine, demand details of a third party etc.

While authorised officers (i.e. ticket inspectors, management and some others) have the power to detain under the transport act, this applies only to a very limited range of situations relating to the railway, trespass, fare evasion etc.

Staff are under very clear orders that while they legally are empowered to detain fare evaders they have been told by management not to. Staff have correctly detained persons on several occasions, two incidents in Bray come to mind, the guy who went on a window smashing binge was detained by a driver and station staff, also at Bray again a driver and station staff tackled 3 fare evaders who tried to make a run for it (driver ended up in hospital afterwards). In both cases the gardai arrested the individuals and there was a successful prosecution.

Jamie2k9 15-02-2018 18:55

On third party, don't they usually do that if they feel they are been lied to?

It all comes back to the same problem and that is no Garda Transport Division to operate alongside RPU and security teams in the GDA. Body camera's wouldn't be a bad idea for RPU either.

Thomas J Stamp 16-02-2018 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9 (Post 79190)
On third party, don't they usually do that if they feel they are been lied to?

It all comes back to the same problem and that is no Garda Transport Division to operate alongside RPU and security teams in the GDA. Body camera's wouldn't be a bad idea for RPU either.


doesnt matter if they feel they ahve been lied to or not, they dont have the authority for a third party or mobile phone details or anything.

we have been campaigning for a transport police for a long time. its not beyond current resources.

Quote:

Don't really care about the case but rather the 16,000
well, there would have been no money if there hadnt been a false imprisonment.

James Shields 16-02-2018 16:10

I'm all for transport police, but my understanding from other countries is that the purpose of transport police is passenger safety and crime prevention. Revenue protection would still be IE's responsibility, wouldn't it?

I'm sure transport police officers would work with RPU staff, but I suspect they would spend as much of their time telling RPU, "no, you're not allowed to do that", as they do detaining passengers who've broken the law.

Thomas J Stamp 16-02-2018 21:19

The awareness that such a thing exists and could turn up randomly/at a moments notice would be the general deterrence and mood setter.

And the transport police could have validly arrested her under the public order act.


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