Proposals for extra train services in North Tipperary...
 

A proposal is to be sent from Iarnrod Eireann to the National Transport Authority to provide an early morning service from Limerick to Dublin via Nenagh and Roscrea.

Fine Gael Deputy Noel Coonan says these proposals if implemented would see an early morning service stop in Roscrea at 6,38 and arrive in Dublin at 8.20, without having to change trains.

A number of additional services on the Nenagh/Roscrea line, would see one extra service in the morning and two in the evening, which will improve the number of services from four to seven.

The route changes need the approval of the National Transport Authority.

(above was posted on Tipp FM Radio's Facebook page today; one doesn't need a FB account to view it).

Am neither connected with the Nenagh line nor any group associated with it. While this sort of innovation is exactly what is needed to "make a go" of railways in a rural/regional context, I ponder why such innovation couldn't have been applied on the South Wexford line where usage was generally higher and the overall line in better condition. It very much seems down to political football and comes across as unfair.

You get bet this is a certain minister for something turning the screw. You can't get to Belfast, Cork or Limerick from Dublin before 9am but the minister doesn't seem to care

Given there is already a train from Waterford scheduled to arrive Heuston at 8:20 the story doesn't really fit

Train would have to leave Limerick at 4:55 am to make it work.

There really is no point until the track situation is addressed and things are sped up

Have to be a 3 coach as well as it won't fit at many of the platforms otherwise

If Alan Kelly wants to get serious about this line, he should flash the cash for CTC, LC automation and elimination, refurb of Nenagh-Borris-in-Ossory to 60mph line speed, a direct curve at Ballybrophy and train storage at Nenagh station for this service and the Limerick commuter. In reality he has cash for none of these things but wants a 100mph trainset to beetle over speed restricted bridges to make himself look good.

If the Newry commuter service was dispatched from Connolly and picked up en route to Newry before turning back, you could get to Belfast by 0804 :D - it would only take about an hour or more longer than the equivalent bus and on 29000s and C3Ks to boot. :rolleyes:

(EDIT: just posted this on the TippFM FB thread: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OaiSHcHM0PA)

It prompts this veido - which can be taken in several different ways.

IMPORTANT NOTICE: No media files are hosted on these forums. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website. We can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. If the video does not play, wait a minute or try again later.

I AGREE

If it was to happon (which it won't) do they have a 22000 to operate it?

Assuming those 22s in Heuston goods yard ever get out of dry dock, then yes.

Can't see this happening or been a success due to time of journeys on that line. My girlfriend is from Limerick and turns into the hulk on a bus if its going slow and most people I know from Limerick are that crazy about journey times like her so I cant see that many people from Limerick choosing the slower route to Dublin. But at least Noel is only asking for one service in the morning which isn't much. The way Alan Kelly goes on you would swear the MK4s, Voyagers, TGV could come to Nenagh and sell a million tickets a day.

It's not going to do anything for Limerick-Dublin travellers. There will be other options that will leave later and arrive earlier. Leaving from Limerick is mostly a matter of the train being there and there being no point in it running empty.

What it's testing is whether there's enough demand for a Nenagh and Roscrea service to increase passenger levels on the line. I suspect there won't be without speed improvements.

People might criticise the minister because this line runs through his constituency, but at least he is trying things to save the line, unlike the previous minister with Waterford-Rosslare, which was just abandoned to its fate.

THe line between Killonan junction and Just past nenagh station is being signed off by engineers within the next 3 weeks once the limits are raised the new services will run over the line .

Having already spent millions "upgrading" significant portions of the Nenagh line, it seems only logical to try and leverage some benefit for tax payers by providing services that might be of some benefit to the travelling public.

It may well be an uphill battle to save this line but at least Alan Kelly will have forced Irish Rail to make some little effort.

Incidentally you can't get to Dublin from Belfast before 0900 following an Irish Rail imposed service degradation in 2009 !

Quite apart from the fact that the track improvements to date have been at the Limerick end and are no use for Dublin-bound services from Roscrea or Nenagh, there is also the matter of the junction layout at Ballybrophy. In the UP dorection, not so bad, but DOWN trains have three reversals before setting out for Roscrea. A work of pure genius!

Afterthought...
 

Obviously these additional services require extra money but one wonders is the IÉ to NTA application to operate them of a:

(i) mere request to operate additional trains nature
OR
(ii) request to operate additional trains including a request for funding of same nature

A request of type (ii) may not necessarily be the case; perhaps IÉ can somehow obtain the requisite money/ balance it against savings elsewhere.

A request of type (i) is highly likely to succeed , a request of type (ii) is likely to be a bit harder.

(labels (i) and (ii) assigned for convenience of discussion and no importance attaches to them otherwise)

I would imagine Irish Rail management are smart enough to be seeking extra cash in return for the service

Given the dire financial position (its seriously dire) it would be negligent to add extra cost onto the bottom line without additional support from the NTA.

Subsidy is down almost 50 million or more than 25% down over the last 5 years.

Going back to the suggested 0820 arrival in Heuston. Not withstanding that 0820 is allocated to the 0600 from Waterford, this is actually quite a busy time on this route with arrivals at 0810 (Cork),0815(Kildare), 0820(Waterford), 0833(Portlaoise), 0838(Westport),[sometimes reversed], 0840(Limerick), 0845(Cork), 0855(Portlaoise)[overtaken by the previous 2], etc.

The apparent 13 min gap between the 0820 (Waterford) and 0833 (0720 ex Portlaoise) is just the difference between a non-stop and stopping service- they have only a 5 min, and often less, gap in Kildare.

The only place they could squeeze an extra arrival is between the 0720 ex Portlaoise (Kildare at 0746) and the 0515 ex Westport (Kildare at 0855) with an arrival around 0835 and delay the Westport a minute or two. But even that could have consequential delays to the Limerick and Cork services.

Platforms may also be an issue. 3 other arrivals between 07.45-08.10 and only two departures at 08.30, 08.35.

What is the equipment for the 0833 usually? Would it work to join an empty three car at Portlaoise to the incoming three set ex Ballybrophy?

After reading ACustomer's post I did have a thought that one option would be to make the service "up only" - a 22K dispatched ex Limerick via Ballybrophy but returned to Limerick via Limerick Junction with passengers for Nenagh transferring from a Cork/Tralee down service in the evenings to a "standard" Limerick-Ballybrophy shuttle service. But then it occurred to me that this train would still require someone to drive back the ETS staff if it "escaped" as did the GAA special that time. It's just a botch job, isn't it? Why is it necessary that passengers ex Nenagh get a free run when passengers from M3 Parkway must now shiver at Clonsilla in the hope the incoming Maynooth service won't be jammed?

The 0833 arrival is the 0720 from Portaoise and is a 6-piece or 2x3. The 0515 ex Westport, howeve, is a 3 car.

Where is this stuff about driving ETS staffs about coming from ? There is a standard ETS instrument at Ballybrophy. The main difference from a normal ETS controlled section is that the staff is not normally placed in the instruments at either Roscrea or Ballybrophy except as required to faciltate the release of a staff at Ballybrophy for a train from the mainline to the branch or to release a staff at Roscrea after a train has left the branch. Operation of the various connections on the branch and between the branch and the mainline requires the ETS token to be at Ballybrophy.

I would like to see services on this line but hope no more money is wasted on services if nobody is going to use it. At the moment this just sounds like they are giving CPR to a corpse and Iarnród Éireann have learned nothing from the WRC project.

You may recall this post, which is what I was basing it on:
http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showpo...71&postcount=7
There is some (dated) discussion along similar lines here:
http://irishrailwaynews.multiply.com...journal%2Fitem

In simple terms as there is no return trip proposed, the ETS staff is going to have to be brought back sometime. Its unclear if its a normal ETS instrument or a simple one as per Nenagh

The arrangements in Ballybrophy are not designed for daily use and appear to require a additional member of staff to operate a local signalling panel. Limerick Dublin is reasonably easy, Dublin Limerick is a nightmare

Regardless the journey Nenagh Ballybrophy is painful to say the least and nothing is going to change there, be fun to see how quickly the track deteriorates as an ICR is a lot heavier than a 2700.

No online booking either...

Yes I also understand there will be no direct evening service, but there will be additional services and improved connections.

As I said in my previous post there is signalling equipment at Ballybrophy jointly controlling (with CTC) the connection between the mainline and the branch. Amongst other controls this equipment requires the Ballybrophy/Roscrea ETS staff to be at Ballybrophy. The signalling equipment will presumeably be operated by the on-duty station staff.

This urban myth about there being some issue in returning the ETS staff (to Roscrea) is just that. Once the through service has left the branch and the signals and points are normalised, the ETS staff is simply popped in the instrument at Ballybrophy putting the ETS circuit in phase and allowing the signalman at Roscrea withdraw a staff. Job done, everything back to normal, sky still in place.

The setup at Nenagh in terms of ETS is different. The signals and points at Nenagh are controlled by a local groundframe, released by the Birdhill/Roscrea ETS staff. There is a special uni directional token to facilitate the Nenagh/Limerick commuter service.

Why no online booking?

I can understand with commuter services, but this is clearly not a commuter service.

It should be no difference from and other ICR leaving Limerick and going to Dublin.

No TVM in Castleconnell Birdhill Nenagh Cloughjordan Roscrea some these stations can't get broadband (doubt machines like that would work on dial up) so probably never will be able to facilitate it. During the booking period for the GAA special you could buy tickets online which were collected in Thurles by Iarnród Éireann staff and brought to Nenagh that morning.

Can I just make a point here.

This is a completely pointless show of political gombeenism, which is a major contributor to Ireland's current parlous financial state. National politicians should be having better things to be doing than trying to sort pet local transport projects.

There is absolutely zero logic in attempting to run a new train service that is going to take fifty people a day. That is what buses are for. There are commuter lines in Dublin where the trains are still rammed morning and evening and are crying out for investment. There is still only one airport in the country with a rail connection (and it's a tenuous one). This sort of carry-on needs to be cut out.

Could not put it better myself, but sadly this is still Ireland and in North Tipp it's all about being the man who fixes things so Michael Lowry is a hero for his ability to get things done regardless of the sense in them the crazy casino idea for one won't be long before he starts claiming some input in this money burning exercise

Not wishing to be negative but just realistic...assuming these extra services get the go ahead then patronage of them will have to be strong to very strong to sustain them and bring about an even half acceptable financial situation.

Lots of regular users. Also rail-based tour companies making use of at least two of the trains along the line on the regular basis. Sell SailRail tickets at both Nenagh and Roscrea. Look at all Bus Éireann and rural community buses that serve the towns that the train serves. Can any of them additionally act as feeders by serving a station? This kind of stuff and much more. (no one thing on its own might make a giant difference but the cumulative effect of numerous lower order things do add up but disappointingly attention to detail never seems to have been a strength of CIÉ).

If decent patronage across the board doesn't materialise within a reasonable timeframe (i.e. by the end of say a generous six to nine months) it is a reasonable conclusion that the whole line would close at that stage (wish to stress I'm not wishing that to be the case but just looking at things from a realistic perspective).

Lets lose all the fancy tourist stuff, it doesn't pay the bills.

Its easy add a train, very hard to remove on and thats the game

Let's play along for one more minute...

If the train departed 0638 Roscrea then arrival in Ballybrophy would be 0701/0702. The 0654 would therefore have just left. Surely that stop would be deleted if this "interesting" plan got a go-ahead, which would accelerate the 0505 ex Cork by a couple of minutes or perhaps serve a more lucrative stop like Kildare instead?

Secondly, should the aforementioned train be a 2 x 22000 in the post 2700 era which seems to be approaching (and presumably the only reason IE didn't discount the idea by saying the 2700s couldn't keep pace on the mainline), could that second set then not turn back at Roscrea and form the Limerick commuter service instead? I realise there would still be the current northbound service to consider.

None of the platforms are long enough for a 6 coach train, the bay platform in Ballybrophy is 30m short

To take one of your examples, Traincustomer, SailRail sells a two-digit number of tickets on an average day. Honest answer please, how many people in the catchment areas of Birdhill, Roscrea, Cloughjordan, and Nenagh will buy one on an average day? I'd be surprised if it was more than half a dozen.

the bus stop is moving to nenagh train station as well , so the the train station there will be bus and train ! there is computers being put back into birdhill, nenagh and roscrea , the platform at
roscrea,cloughjordan,birdhill, can take 4 coachs or 6 cravens.
nenagh , castleconnel can take six coachs or 9 cravens! all stations along the line have recently been repainted , rewired and has all new platform furnitureand is getting new signs which nenagh already have the signs!

I was thinking of the 6 coaches only going as far as Roscrea then splitting as the 2700s currently split in Nenagh. The back three would be locked out until RoscreaUm... Cravens???? Bit late for that!

I think the gist of my earlier post may have been misunderstood. In it I put forward a few low order ideas from tens of possible things. It could be likened to a small shop. Just because only two people a day buy a box of matches that doesn't mean one should stop selling them. Similarly if ten tourists a day visit the shop in summer and buy lunch items that's revenue that wouldn't otherwise exist. This is the point I'm making. Nobody is saying these things pay the bills. It's the ethos of doing everything possible I was highlighting. It's the lazy not try one's best attitude of numerous institutions in this country that is partly responsible for so much unemployment and lost tourism.

Right, but let's look at one of your suggestions in particular:
The answer appears to be a big fat NO. BE reacted to the Galway-Limerick service by inventing the 51X. They reacted to being handed the South Wexford line by routing services to the Quay and not to the railway station in Waterford. They are partnering with Gobus to hammer the Dublin-Galway rail service.

Of course the logical answer is that BE run a service from Colbert to Portlaoise with IE taking the passengers the rest of the way but that's not how it works with "the sister company". Instead, BE are likely to throw a few more buses on just to ensure that you'd have to be soft in your head to consider the rail over them.

Was thinking of feeders in a more localised context e.g. Birr-Roscrea; Killaloe and surrounds to Birdhill

It would be great if they would do it - especially improving connectivity to Plassey/Annacotty from Castleconnell for instance - but there's no sign of any intention to do so.

new timetable
 

departs limerick at = 5.15am, 6.25am,4.05pm and 17.05 all services going to bally and back!
5.15am will run stright through bally

6.25am will connect with the 7.35 limerick - Dublin(via thurles)

4.05pm will connect with 16.30 Cork -Dublin

5.05pm will connect with 17.30 Cork -Dublin

services from dublin 9am , 5.05pm & 6pm (all change at ballybrophy )

there is no commuter service coming from limercik - nenagh in the evening but morning one still excists!

Bye bye the line so, impossible to commute Nenagh Limerick