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-   -   Waterford-Rosslare reopening? (http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=14169)

doherty jack 18-03-2012 22:11

Waterford-Rosslare reopening?
 
Rosslare strand - waterford railway line to reopen under community rail partnership? ,supported by Iarnrod Eirrean... look at "save the rosslare - waterford rail line@ on Facebook -http://www.facebook.com/groups/367387502018/:)

Mark Gleeson 18-03-2012 23:13

Don't get too excited

Until Irish Rail put something in writing it doesn't exist

comcor 18-03-2012 23:26

Any organisation that uses Facebook as it's public face and then makes it private is dumb. I can't read that link.

Traincustomer 19-03-2012 13:59

Not a Facebooker myself so availed of the opportunity to look when someone else had Facebook open - appreciate this may not always be possible - but it's one way around it.

dowlingm 19-03-2012 15:12

"right lads, all ye have to do is raise the money for mini CTC, total LC automation and railcar heavy overhauls and ye can have as many 2700s as ye want. Oh and ye'll need a gang to paint the Barrow bridge yellow, for safety and all that. Oh and BE will be staying on the route."

Destructix 20-03-2012 10:42

Maybe Iarnród Éireann could con them into purchasing a few MK3's and a number of old 071 class locos.

All joking aside I admire the work of Tanya Fenelon to get this line reopened. Unlike the NRP/WOT she has no support from any TD/minister. Plus she does look a lot more attractive than the people who head other groups trying to save rail lines. :D

Mark Gleeson 20-03-2012 13:39

I'm knee deep in legalistic questions that IE will have to answer.

Under no circumstances is a Mk3 on the table, IE didn't offer it and we didn't ask. The offer is a railcar

Jamie2k9 20-03-2012 16:49

A railcar is much better, otherwise engine changes would be required in Waterford and Rosslare and in Waterford it takes time to change an engine.

sublimity 20-03-2012 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9 (Post 67047)
A railcar is much better, otherwise engine changes would be required in Waterford and Rosslare and in Waterford it takes time to change an engine.

No need for mini CTC though - mechanical signaling should be sufficient for a not so busy line.

doherty jack 20-03-2012 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by sublimity (Post 67048)
No need for mini CTC though - mechanical signaling should be sufficient for a not so busy line.

there is only 8 level crossings aswell and only one staffed station !it could happen!

James Howard 20-03-2012 19:15

This is brilliant news and a credit to all involved. In the present climate this makes sense as a model to apply on the more lightly used lines. It is certainly preferable to just shutting up shop and leaving the line to rot away until it is useless for all practical purposes without investing millions of euro per kilometre.

I feel that Irish Rail are leaving a lot of money in people's pockets in the way that they simply don't encourage rail travel where one of the source/destinations is not Dublin and this is something that can be addressed if the lines are being run locally.

Destructix 20-03-2012 20:16

If any railcars are going to be leased shouldn't they be either 2600's and 2800's because as someone pointed out in another thread it is very hard for Iarnród Éireann to get parts for the 2700's or something and that's why they are been withdrawn. Unless some of the sets will be stripped for parts.

Mark Gleeson 20-03-2012 22:54

The whole its hard to get parts is more a case of parts are available easily but not at a price Irish Rail wants

The engine and gearbox is more or less the same as that under the 26/2800.

It is a 2700 or more precisely two 2750's which look like the best option

Ronald Binge 20-03-2012 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destructix (Post 67035)
Maybe Iarnród Éireann could con them into purchasing a few MK3's and a number of old 071 class locos.

All joking aside I admire the work of Tanya Fenelon to get this line reopened. Unlike the NRP/WOT she has no support from any TD/minister. Plus she does look a lot more attractive than the people who head other groups trying to save rail lines. :D

More to the point she did it in the face of the usual cyncism that is one of this country's least attractive qualities. Keyboard warriors take note.

Thomas J Stamp 22-03-2012 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald Binge (Post 67060)
Keyboard warriors take note.

where would the irish railway scene be without the keyboard warriors, eh?

we just get on with things.

dowlingm 22-03-2012 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronald Binge (Post 67060)
More to the point she did it in the face of the usual cyncism that is one of this country's least attractive qualities. Keyboard warriors take note.

I hope that others take note that this line has had track movements in the last 12 months, never mind this century, and thus that unrealistic expectations are not raised.

Mark Gleeson 22-03-2012 14:24

Its a game of chess and since the NTA put a condition to maintain the line, its pretty easy to start services again. That was move one in the lines favour. Secondly it is one of the few routes in the country that completely destroys all alternatives in journey time offered

The problem becomes one of money, certification and training

Traincustomer 22-03-2012 15:28

As an example of the highly competitive rail journey time...

One Monday evening earlier this month I travelled from Wexford to Waterford by bus. At the Waterford side of the bridge in New Ross the bus I was on passed the route 370 (Waterford-Wellingtonbridge-Bridgetown-Rosslare Strand & Europort) rail replacement bus. The time was 18.04 and the South Wexford-bound bus was stationary in the heavy eastbound traffic...

Given the way the traffic was moving (or not moving!) it would be reasonable to assume the bus would be lucky to reach the stop in New Ross by 18.10. And the bus had a further half an hour before it would reach Wellingtonbridge. Another 20 minutes from Wellingtonbridge to Bridgetown. And yet another 20 minutes to get to Rosslare Strand. Throw in a final ten minutes from there to its terminus at the ferry terminal.

In comparison 40 minutes out from Waterford the train had already ticked off Campile, Ballycullane and Wellingtonbridge and would be on its way towards Bridgetown.

Whilst acknowledging that the lengthy bus journey times to South Wexford are not the fault of Bus Éireann personnel in any way, the rail versus bus comparison speaks for itself.

comcor 22-03-2012 16:21

One thing I discovered from a relative in the area was that there was originally a direct line from Bridgetown to Wexford via a place called Felthouse Junction.

Does anyone know when that closed?

I always felt that if Wexford had been the eastern terminus that there would have been more demand for the line.

Now, before we have a repeat of the insanity that went on in the Clonmel-Thurles thread, I have no belief that this should be reopened. It is more a question of interest.

If Wexford was to be the eastern terminus, it should be achieved by service Rosslare Village, and the driver walking down the train to set off towards Wexford from there.

Mark Gleeson 22-03-2012 16:42

There was a junction alright which allowed a direct Waterford Wexford via Wellington Bridge, was removed back early 1900's

Bear in mind at the time the Waterford Dublin routing was mind boggling.

Waterford - Killkenny - Dublin
Waterford - Killkenny - Portlaoise (surprisingly a direct route!)
Waterford - New Ross - Macmine Jct - Dublin
Waterford - Wellington Bridge - Felthouse Junc - Dublin
Waterford - Wellington Bridge - Rosslare Strand - Dublin

Best routing is probably Waterford - Rosslare Strand - Rosslare Europort - Wexford for a local service but if you serve Rosslare Europort you lose time advantage to Wexford

Colm Moore 22-03-2012 16:52

There is no problem with Rosslare Europort being the terminus, but Wexford-Waterford has to have priority with the peak flows and have the generally better service.

So it could operate:
Rosslare Europort-Wexford-Waterford
Waterford-Wexford-Rosslare Europort

Felthouse-Killinick as a direct curve would only save 5km between Wexford and Waterford, but you would need to build 3km of railway, money that would be better spent elsewhere. It ran from here: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,706971,616107,6,3 to here: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,705249,613363,6,3

Traincustomer 22-03-2012 20:02

I looked up Johnson’s Atlas & Gazetteer of the railways of Ireland. It states that Killinick Junction (also known as Orristown or Assaly Jct.) to Felthouse Junction opened on 1st August 1906 and closed to passengers on 1st July 1910, closing completely on 28th May 1911. It further says it was 2.1 miles in length.

As well as the Wexford – Waterford and vice versa peak flows (in fact the stronger flow is towards Wexford) I would contend that any new service ideally needs to check a number of other boxes to maximise its usefulness to the general public.

For instance:

Connectivity with the other lines:
It should be possible to travel from any station on the line to the likes of Dublin, all Co. Wicklow, Co. Wexford stations and Kilkenny/Carlow/Clonmel and back again on the same day. No wait for a connecting train should exceed thirty minutes (ideally much less). I.e.

(i) At Waterford : the Waterford-Tipp-Limerick Jct line (with onward connections to Cork/Kerry/Galway).
(ii) At Waterford: the Dublin line serving Kilkenny/Carlow/Kildare.
(iii) At Rosslare Strand/Wexford: the Wicklow/Dublin line.
(I assume an occasional through service e.g. Rosslare-Limerick is out of the question? – am only working on the very sketchy info I know thus far).

A basic Sunday service.

A bus service linking Waterford railway station with the city centre (there is no need for subsidy to be wasted procuring a new Bus Éireann service to do this as there is already a city route operated by Kenneally’s/J.J. Kavanagh which passes the station) and runs to the city centre and regional hospital which appears to have spare capacity much of the time. Ideally the bus service should be available as an add-on much like the way the 90/Luas transfer from Heuston to the city works or like Plusbus up north and in Britain.

THE Institute of Technology link could be solved easy enough as only a morning and evening connecting journey would be needed.

Local bus links:
Useful onward journeys can be created if existing local bus routes can be amended to serve railway stations. Two particular examples stick out: the commercially operated Wexford Bus route serves Bridgetown on its way to Kilmore Quay. It could perhaps call at the railway station to connect to/from certain trains.

Similarly the existing subsidised Bus Éireann 370 route could serve Campile railway station enabling the journey from places like Duncannon and Fethard-on-Sea to/from Waterford to be accomplished much faster. It could be redesigned to feed into local stations rather than run to Waterford.

Connectivity with the Fishguard ferry at Rosslare:

In Wales/England there is a strong notion of places like Tipperary, Limerick, Cork and Kerry being obscure and difficult to reach by public transport from Rosslare (True about being rather difficult to reach). Lengthy coach journeys are not really an attractive option for many. This notion has been the case even when there was a train service on the South Wexford line. The reintroduction of South Wexford line trains gives an opportunity to tackle this head-on by a train ex Rosslare either itself running to Limerick or offering a good connection at Waterford into an onwards train.

And there is no conflict of interest between serving the ferry and local commuter traffic; by default a train from the Waterford direction will end up at Europort at some stage between 6.30pm and 8pm anyway.

To quickly digress the South Wexford’s raison d’etre was as a continuum between London, Wales and the South and South West of Ireland for the benefit of travel and tourism. Fishguard has dedicated onward rail connections the far side (the Pembroke route doesn’t). They connect with the ferry, work well and see good usage. No reason it can’t work this side for Waterford and onwards.

The country needs every visitor it can get. Britain is our largest tourism market source. Around half of the people who visit here every year come from Britain. Granted a majority will probably fly/drive but Rosslare needs to project itself more positively and proactively. If it has user-friendly onward rail connections to the south and south west it can validly do this. This means that visitors from several parts of England/Wales coming by sea and rail will opt for Rosslare rather than going via Holyhead-Dublin. In turn benefits accrue to businesses in the south-east, south and south west. People stop off and spend money.

The (Stena Line) ferry from Fishguard berths in Rosslare at 06.15 and 18.00 daily and sails ex Rosslare at 09.00 and 21.00.

Assuming there will be a few daily train journeys each way the French ferries will probably be fairly well covered by default.

dowlingm 22-03-2012 22:28

I think it would be important that crewing be handled from Rosslare or Wexford to avoid the "but how will the crew get home" cutoff which wrecked connectivity with Dublin service and forced an arguably too early departure for commuters. Felthouse Jct would be nice but I think would be after stuff like automating LCs and increasing line speed - maybe if a freight flow from Belview to Wexford or points north was developed where a reversal would be an issue. Better line separation to permit more than 5mph on Wexford Quay would be nice too.

Is it technically possible to run Waterford-Rosslare Strand-Wexford on some/all services?

Mark Gleeson 22-03-2012 22:31

Slight issue is it is not possible to have a train from Waterford and one to Waterford at Rosslare Strand at the same time as the track layout does not allow this and hasn't since the early 1970's

dowlingm 23-03-2012 21:04

I wonder could the Waterford-Rosslare programme get some enviro funding by having "their" 2700s participate in this UK engine research programme for Cummins 855 engines.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/index....cf10e452692c30

I believe the same engines are in the 26s and 28s so IE could observe the performance of the refitted 2700 set(s) with a view to evaluating cost benefit of a fleet-wide upgrade.

Mark Gleeson 23-03-2012 21:52

26/27/28 all already have mechanical gearboxes so much of the proposed benefits from this program have already been achieved here.

2200DMU 07-06-2012 20:02

The meeting that was canceled in April will now take place on 20 June, some delay with docements. I can't help but think its pointless.

2200DMU 28-06-2012 14:15

The meeting seem to go quiet well the other day. Survays will now be carried out with people to see suitable times and see fuel costs etc. The plan is to use 2700 DMU I think 7051 and 7053 and they will receive maintance in Waterford and a number of private operators are waiting for survay results before providing capitial. They also plan a Sunday service and all services will connect with Waterford-Dublin, Waterford-Limerick and ferries at Rosslare and operate to Wexford.

See full details on Facebook page

dowlingm 30-06-2012 03:06

What sort of facilities are there in Waterford? Seems to me it would be better to contract IE Limerick Depot to do all but the daily checks with equipment swaps similar to those on the Ballina service - they've got the expertise and it might be worth it for IE to keep their hand in in case the 2700s needed to be reactivated in a hurry, for instance in a scenario where an existing fleet is discovered to have a class wide issue which would cause withdrawal for a significant period.


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