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-   -   Western rail corridor (WRC) - Capital Plan (http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=15609)

Goods 07-10-2017 11:09

Western rail corridor (WRC) - Capital Plan
 
https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wor...-capital-plan/

Good to see that the Capital Plan includes rail infrastructure for the future. Existing rail infrastructure could not be put in place today because of cost so we should develop what we have inherited, connect it up and allow rail to be a part of Ireland's commitment to the 2030 UN Sustainable Development Goals.

Goods 09-10-2017 14:58

Bereft of ideas
 
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/co...-36206695.html

CIE tend to run down a service firstly, making it unattractive then claim that the low passenger numbers show that it is a failed line and recommend closing. If the service and price was good rail would be used more often. In Europe at weekends there is often a half price offer to attract families and fill trains at off peak times.

ACustomer 09-10-2017 19:59

Not the dreaded WRC again!. We have just had the opening of a €500 million stretch of Motorway right alongside the Ennis-Athenry route. This is at a time when Dublin's inadequate transport infrastructure arguably adds to Dublin's housing problems. I would spend money on DART underground (and not the mickey-mouse scaled back version proposed a couple of years ago).

Also Brexit will require reorientation of traffic away from UK ports as a way to Europe, and hence places like Rosslare should play a vital role, so we will need better links to the South-East, not the North West. (Sorry if this touches the F-word!)

Do we have a transport minister or is he too busy trying to be justice minister?

Inniskeen 10-10-2017 07:41

I would be enthusiastic about DART underground if I I thought it would yield anything approaching the benefits claimed for it. Simply connecting the Docklands to Pearse station and sending all Maynooth and Newbridge trains to/via Docklands would be just as effective at a fraction of the cost. As for the WRC there are regional and strategic reasons to extend to Tuam and Claremorris. Galway in particular, is a rapidly growing city and would benefit from improved rail links.

Goods 10-10-2017 12:23

WRC
 
I dont think that we should be exclusive in our thinking in that rail works best when well connected. I agree that Rosslare now becomes more important w Brexit but the NW would also benefit if Sligo, Tuam etc were linked via Limerick to Rosslare. Linking a line to the airport is well overdue whichever way it happens.

Mark Gleeson 10-10-2017 14:40

WRC doesn't meet the financial case to be supported, it doesn't work with the cost benefit analysis. The cost to subside is way to much and the passenger numbers on the Ennis Athenry section today are driven mainly by aggressive fare discounting so the overall revenue isn't increasing as the yield is being sacrificed to make the passenger numbers look better.

Much better spend the money on Athenry Galway and close the rest, focus on actual demand and local development and keeping the distances reasonably short to maximise efficiency and to immediately make a clear statement that rural sprawl will not be rewarded, if you want a train live near major cities.

DART underground would result in a reduction in subsidy in Dublin due the economy of scale and volume, it actually can make a surplus

There isn't the population density to support the WRC and the last thing we want to do is to in any way to encourage people in Ennis to commute to Galway, or even worse Claremorris to Galway, thats a crazy idea and giving in to those kind of requests have massively increased costs in Dublin as places like Longford, Gorey Athlone which are 80 odd miles from Dublin are afforded commuter services which cost a fortune to operate.

Traincustomer 10-10-2017 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson (Post 78847)
Much better spend the money on Athenry Galway and close the rest, .

As in close Ennis-Gort-Athenry or not reopen to Tuam etc...?

Ennis-Athenry is there so should be made a go of as should every other open line. It's not as if anything meaningful will be achieved by saving a few million and South Wexford is a recent example of that. The money will be dripped away elsewhere and closure savings are frankly token amounts in the grander scheme of things.

comcor 10-10-2017 15:45

Exactly. Closure savings are negligible compared to what can be achieved elsewhere.

Maybe close one or both of Ardrahan or Craughwell as they are tiny and just slowing the service down. I'm not sure InterCity trains should be stopping at Oranmore or Sixmilebridge either, but the towns are worth serving, so in the absence of a local commuter service, there's not much alternative.

Goods 10-10-2017 18:28

WRC
 
Longford, Gorey Athlone commuters.......

Whats the alternative...... to have everybody living in Dublin? There is a housing shortage in Dublin meaning those working and studying in the city have little option but to commute. Youth studying in Dublin appreciate the train service on an early Monday morning from these towns. The Limerick - Galway passenger figures have surpassed CIE expectations and indeed the same argument was trotted out when Knock airport was being developed that it was not viable yet it is providing a valuable service to the West today. Rail infrastructure around the country is invaluable in a country that is over dependent on road transport and against the UN sustainable development 2030 goals.

ACustomer 11-10-2017 10:02

A few points:
Ennis-Athenry has new infrasctructure and the financial impact of closure would be relatively minor. North of Athenry is a totally different ball game, even ignoring low traffic levels. The very considerable capital costs are relevant to any decision, whereas the capital costs of Ennis-Athenry are sunk costs and therefore irrelevant. If I had to put in new investment, a few bob on a crossing loop at Sixmilebridge might not go astray.

Goods, you say
Quote:

Longford, Gorey Athlone commuters.......Whats the alternative...... to have everybody living in Dublin?
Very long-distance commuting is in large measure a response to hopeless transport and planning decisions within 20 to 30 kms of Dublin. DART underground and other investments complementary to it would enhance the quality and quantity of commuting from a relatively small distance.

I propose a new variant of Boyle's law (remember, For a fixed amount of gas, pressure and volume are inversely proportional). This reads, for any railway project, the political pressure is inversely proportional to the likely volume of traffic.

Mark Gleeson 11-10-2017 14:53

Lets get one thing very straight about numbers

Target was 250k Ennis Athenry, 125-140k is the best done so far, this is a fact. Adding in Galway Athenry and Ennis Limerick is a classic smokescreen to inflate the numbers

What is shocking is despite the 21st century infrastructure and automation its loss is still significant. Closing it doesn't really save much but it does save on the operating costs and requires minimal redundancies. Nenagh on the other hand what you are mainly saving is the future costs of major engineering works.

There is a huge question of efficiency, we cannot fund a frequent all day commuter service to Longford, Athlone, Gorey, its mostly carrying air around apart from some demand in morning and evening, folks then complain they have no late night service etc. If you choose to live 80 miles away then you will only get a basic service. Thats not sustainable development we are actually encouraging people to build cheap one off houses in Longford and to spend 2 hours each way on a train, its not a way to live.

Prior to the introduction of Longford Dublin it was Mullingar Dublin, 50 miles a reasonable cut off distance, there was a plan for a late evening post 9pm train, once the service got pushed out to Longford the evening train plan was scrapped as the numbers could no longer stack up.

Goods 11-10-2017 17:21

WRC
 
[i]"What we have instead is a motorway plan which is not rooted in sound traffic management or sound financial management. That has been proven", and a plan estimated at €5.6 billion could now cost up to €20 billion.
Mr Sargent said that a trick employed by contractors had become systematic, where they put in a bid "low enough to get political support and once accepted the claims are maximised to ensure that the overrun is not 20 per cent over, which is the average internationally, but 86 per cent of the cost"

Its interesting how some stress the capital cost of rail development particularly in cases where the infrastructure such as the permanent way is already in place like the WRC. Such infrastructure could not be purchased today yet its in the states hands and can be developed at a fraction of the price of roads. In terms of rail we must have the foresight to project forward. But for the fact that the Harcourt line permanent way was maintained the likelihood of the Luas line to Ranelagh and beyond might never have happened. Maintain the option and plan for a future that certainly will not be based on petrol/diesel cars or trucks.

Goods 13-10-2017 16:24

Athenry WRC map
 
https://www.google.ge/search?q=weste...K4VMLPjP6uY1M:

WRC has to be one of the best connected lines in the country intersecting with main line routes at Limerick, Athenry, Claremorris and Collooney. Athenry has just been named as the location for Apple info centre so having rail links will be an added attraction.

Mark Gleeson 13-10-2017 20:06

Data centres look big, employ tiny numbers of people once built, could get by with less than 10 per shift

We can thank CIE for it since they laid a fibre optic cable along the WRC 15 years ago

Really grappling for straws here

Inniskeen 14-10-2017 09:13

What Mark says about says Data Centres omits to include suppliers, outsourced support staff, building maintenance and others I can't immediately think of. The numbers employed in total may not be huge but there are other contributions including construction employment, support for renewable energy and conmercial rates. More importantly other employment and activity may follow in the area with obvious societal and region benefits.

As for the WRC, the case for completion may not be overwhelming but despite motorways Galway is a heavily congested city and both it and it's hinterland would benefit from improved regional rail links. The other key advantage of re-instating the Athenry to Galway line is that it would allow diversion of freight traffic destined for Waterford away from the Kildare bottleneck.

Thomas Morelli 14-10-2017 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson (Post 78852)
Lets get one thing very straight about numbers

Target was 250k Ennis Athenry, 125-140k is the best done so far, this is a fact.

In what year were 125-140k journeys made?

Jamie2k9 14-10-2017 12:08

Quote:

As for the WRC, the case for completion may not be overwhelming but despite motorways Galway is a heavily congested city and both it and it's hinterland would benefit from improved regional rail links. The other key advantage of re-instating the Athenry to Galway line is that it would allow diversion of freight traffic destined for Waterford away from the Kildare bottleneck.
This is such a myth.

Yes divert via West of Ireland, and require 2 loco changes (?) and take just as long as current paths do. Not to mention the cost of manning Limerick J-Waterford to service the route combined with little spare capacity between Ennis-Limerick.

The current schedules were designed to cut costs and don't have much impact. It would be cheaper to return to the evening runs at a 23.30-00.00 arrival and avoid any congestion at Kildare.

Inniskeen 15-10-2017 12:21

There is some capacity between Ennis and Limerick and more could be added relatively easily, if required.

Why would there be a requirement for two locomotive changes on freight trains routed via the WRC. I can see that there might be one change but two ????

Jamie2k9 15-10-2017 13:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inniskeen (Post 78874)
There is some capacity between Ennis and Limerick and more could be added relatively easily, if required.

Why would there be a requirement for two locomotive changes on freight trains routed via the WRC. I can see that there might be one change but two ????

Wasn't sure of how the connection works at Athenry.

Whatever way people try to dress up the business case, spending millions to divert 6 return workings per week doesn't and will never stack up.

The project needs to be shelved, it would only for our unstable Goverment it's still been "talked" about. I can't see that changing if there is another election either.

Goods 15-10-2017 14:38

WRC
 
The reason WRC is important is that this is not about today and the six trains you mention, this is about the future.
Going on that logic the Harcourt line in Dublin should have been built on and there would never have been a Luas because putting that type of infrastructure in place today would be impossible.
Brexit means Rosslare is more important and links to it by rail are a solution for the future. Ireland is obliged under UN sustainable goals 2030 to move away from car/truck petrol-diesel as all our fuel is imported. Electric trains will be the way to go. Dublin Cork line is too busy.

Jamie2k9 15-10-2017 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goods (Post 78876)
The reason WRC is important is that this is not about today and the six trains you mention, this is about the future.
Going on that logic the Harcourt line in Dublin should have been built on and there would never have been a Luas because putting that type of infrastructure in place today would be impossible.
Brexit means Rosslare is more important and links to it by rail are a solution for the future. Ireland is obliged under UN sustainable goals 2030 to move away from car/truck petrol-diesel as all our fuel is imported. Electric trains will be the way to go. Dublin Cork line is too busy.

Rubbish, the case can never be made for the line and the bulk of freight will still operate via the UK irregardless of Brexit and Rail Freight will never be substantial in Ireland.

Mark Gleeson 15-10-2017 21:17

Any further mention of freight will result in thread lock

Colm Moore 19-10-2017 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goods (Post 78850)
the same argument was trotted out when Knock airport was being developed that it was not viable yet it is providing a valuable service to the West today.

Knock killed both Galway and Sligo airports.

Goods 25-10-2017 07:57

WRC
 
http://npf.ie/wp-content/uploads/201...compressed.pdf

WRC is not about now its about a future Ireland. The reason we are so poor at planning in Ire is that we plan only within the 4yr term of a Govt whereas in more successful economies there is a long term planning process. Dublin is an example of the short term plan mess up. Hydrocarbon fuels are disappearing diesel will be a no go in 5yrs which is why electric rail will be an answer.

Inniskeen 26-10-2017 07:04

I would imagine that you would save as much in addressing waste and inefficiecies on DART as in closing the WRC. You would have to imagine that Irish Rail have done a sweetheart deal on the price of electricity given the amount of empty space being dragged around - eight car trains are rarely required outside the morning and evening peak periods on monday to friday yet are to be found at other times rattling around with barely a hand full of passengers for most of the trip. Revenue protection on DART is none too hot either with some of the busiest stations in the country unmanned most of the time.

Unmanned stations and large lightly loaded trains increase the incidence of antisocial behaviour and vandalism which deters other passengers as well as generating expenditure on repairs.

Another inefficiency that has defied resolution for years is crew changing at Fairview which slows journeys and disrupts other services. What is the cost this represents in lost capacity ?

Goods 11-11-2017 20:14

WRC future option
 
http://npf.ie/wp-content/uploads/201...compressed.pdf

Connectivity and future population growth are items that raise the importance of the invaluable infrastructure that is the Western Rail Corridor. A country with ready made infrastructure like WRC route has an advantage that should be exploited for the public good. Rail developments in the future will probably see single track systems that are lighter and less expensive to maintain which is why the WRC permanent way is so essential to open up

Goods 26-11-2017 17:37

WRC future option
 
https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/...ght-track-uic/

"By 2050 it is expected that the majority of medium-distance passenger transport will be by rail". Thats the reason why the current generation should not make the same mistake as some of the previous political generation in IRE in dismantling rail infrastructure. The ideas that are coming for rail in the future are lighter and greener but having the permanent way in place is a huge advantage which in IRE is already the case like the Western Rail Corridor.

Thomas Morelli 11-12-2017 21:49

Does anyone know if other European countries have railways to specifically link together cities that are the sizes of Limerick and Galway?

Goods 12-12-2017 16:17

WRC future option
 
Many examples of rail connections to similar cities in Portugal which like the Galway Limerick example is a coastal West European area.

Thomas Morelli 12-12-2017 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goods (Post 79074)
Many examples of rail connections to similar cities in Portugal which like the Galway Limerick example is a coastal West European area.

Which cities are they?

ACustomer 12-12-2017 18:13

Goods: you are wrong about Portugal. Like Ireland, and with roughly twice the population in a similar area, the Portuguese rail network is almost entirely focused on lines radiating from the capital, and also from Porto. Where services exist between provincial cities of comparable size to Limerick and Galway (50,000+) they are generally on part of an intercity route, e.g. between Coimbra and Aveiro on the Lisbon-Porto main line. South of the Tagus river, the main cities of Faro, Evora, and Beja are all linked to Lisbon by rail, but direct connections are between them are virtually non-existent. I could go on...

What we can learn from the Portuguese is (a) their impressive electrification of most main lines, (b) their big investment in suburban services around the two main cities and (c ) the Porto metro which is like a souped-up version of LUAS and crucially uses tunnels in the city centre (thus avoiding any College Green debacle).

Thomas Morelli 12-12-2017 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACustomer (Post 79076)
Like Ireland, and with roughly twice the population in a similar area, the Portuguese rail network is almost entirely focused on lines radiating from the capital, and also from Porto. Where services exist between provincial cities of comparable size to Limerick and Galway (50,000+) they are generally on part of an intercity route, e.g. between Coimbra and Aveiro on the Lisbon-Porto main line. South of the Tagus river, the main cities of Faro, Evora, and Beja are all linked to Lisbon by rail, but direct connections are between them are virtually non-existent.

So, does this mean that a railway linking only a city with 100, 000 people with one that has 80, 000 is not something other European countries have?

ACustomer 12-12-2017 21:59

I don't know what about other European countries. The question was asked about Portugal versus the WRC, and I thought I answered it.

comcor 13-12-2017 09:24

Not wanting to get sidetracked, but there is definitely a train from Faro to Lagos as I have used it.

In many ways, it has a lot in common with the WRC. The service is infrequent and it's slower than traveling by bus.

ACustomer 13-12-2017 09:40

Comcor. I agree let's not get side-tracked, but the line you mention runs along a heavily-populated coastal strip linking several large towns (Lagos, Portimao, Faro, Olhao, Tavira and Vila Real de Santo Antonio). There is no analogy with some big investment to link Limerick and Galway and the line has loads of small halts which probably account for a large proportion of its traffic.

Looking at other countries from which to draw a lesson for Ireland can be a difficult business.

Goods 13-12-2017 14:02

Rail census 2014 has the data on usage though the Galway Limerick data was fairly new at that point. To my knowledge the usage has passed the estimate given before it opened. The key point is that a line like this attracts other development and helps a region grow. Dublin is growing out of proportion and the West is stagnating so such a rail line can be a multiplier. Rail is about the long term which is why it is going through a revival all over Europe except in IRE.

Thomas Morelli 19-12-2017 18:51

Is the recently opened motorway likely to have a significant detriment on the usage of Ennis to Athenry?
According to Google Maps, the journey times by car have only dropped by around 5 minutes, and Citylink had already been operating express bus services from Galway to Limerick(and on to Cork) before this motorway opened, and when I consider these points, I am unsure whether the motorway is going to make the trains as good as empty or not.

Goods 23-12-2017 09:06

Western rail corridor
 
http://ec.europa.eu/research/press/j...et_s2r-web.pdf
Rail is the longer term option that Ireland will eventually follow as is happening in the rest of Europe. The road building lobby in Ireland is sufficiently powerful still to ensure that the bulk of investment goes into roads which is why ther is an imbalance. This is the reason that you have high rise car parks at Dublin airport without a rail connection even though when the M50 was being developed it would have been easy to run a spur from either the Belfast line or the Sligo line. The western rail corridor is a vital piece of infrastructure that is owned by the state which could never be put in place today and should be developed to reconnect the west particularly to Rosslare port. Rail links to our ports have been gradually severed, the truck lobby was more influential.
Today rail links are operating from Europe to China making that option faster that the sea routes on the One Belt One Road corridors. This is the future.

Goods 22-02-2018 17:49

Open Tuam and Castlerea
 
https://irishrailwaydevelopments.wor...-what-matters/

Well timed piece about the fallacy of tearing up rail lines and what preserving them meant to places like Ballina and Westport. The lines are a bridge to the west that otherwise will not be there. Cycle lanes are great but the people in rural Ireland need connectivity and industry so that the place doesnt turn into a nature reserve in the future.

Goods 05-04-2018 14:25

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/envi...idor-1.3450236
Western elected politicians were asleep at the wheel not to be able to promote the western rail corridor when this was part of EU long term thinking. Action to obstruct the development of the rail corridor was short termism and failed to recognize the strategic value of this rail connection along the western corridor at a time when Rosslare will become an important export hub after Brexit. Having an alternative route by rail to Rosslare is an important future option for rail development supported by EU


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