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-   -   Navan Rail link - Phase 2 (http://www.railusers.ie/forum/showthread.php?t=14366)

fiskar 17-06-2012 16:21

Navan Rail link - Phase 2
 
Looking for some data on the above given the deferral of the line and lack of interest by local TD's in progressing the line to Navan.

Was the feasibility study by Iarnrod Eireann in 2007 ever released to the public? I would like to know what the expected passenger use was given the population of the county as expected at that time for 2015.

Failing that, what is the capacity of one train carriage as used on phase 1 of the line to Dunboyne and Pace? Phase 2 expected to use 8 carriages.

ACustomer 17-06-2012 21:28

fiskar: what do you mean by referring to one-carriage trains being used on the line to DUnboyne and Pace? Trains are usually 2900s which means a minimum of 4 carriages or 22000s which means a minimum of three. Also the existing line can take 8 carriage trains (2900s).

Colm Moore 17-06-2012 22:38

Politicians are often only focused on the current election cycle.

The diesel railcars can seat 40-65 people per carriage, perhaps up to twice that standing. The 2700s are currently being withdrawn as they are the least reliable. So likely minimum train size is two carriages. http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=123&n=210

Roughan & O’Donovan / AECOM http://www.roughanodonovan.com/proje...-Rail-line.asp have the documentation substantially progressed.

Depending on external factors, primarily the economy, it might be worthwhile. In the recession, the high cost of borrowing and with the M3 in place it is unlikely to be worthwhile.

If someone has €300-500 million, things can move forward. :)

In the current environment, the best that can be hoped for is improving existing lines - signalling, level crossings, stations, etc.

fiskar 19-06-2012 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACustomer (Post 68229)
fiskar: what do you mean by referring to one-carriage trains being used on the line to DUnboyne and Pace? Trains are usually 2900s which means a minimum of 4 carriages or 22000s which means a minimum of three. Also the existing line can take 8 carriage trains (2900s).

merely trying to work out the capacity given that an 8 carriage train was to use the line,

fiskar 19-06-2012 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colm Moore (Post 68230)
Politicians are often only focused on the current election cycle.

The diesel railcars can carry 40-65 people per carriage. The 2700s are currently being withdrawn as they are the least reliable. So likely minimum train size is two carriages. http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=123&n=210

Roughan & O’Donovan / AECOM http://www.roughanodonovan.com/proje...-Rail-line.asp have the documentation substantially progressed.

Depending on external factors, primarily the economy, it might be worthwhile. In the recession, the high cost of borrowing and with the M3 in place it is unlikely to be worthwhile.

If someone has €300-500 million, things can move forward. :)

In the current environment, the best that can be hoped for is improving existing lines - signalling, level crossings, stations, etc.

Thanks for that. 40 to 65 would put an 8 carriage capacity per service at 320 to 520. Would need to be at the higher end in my opinion.

Been on ROD website but surely the feasibility report is out there somewhere?

dowlingm 19-06-2012 20:19

I think if there was money to build Phase 2 there would be money to refit the 27s...

I will never understand that fiasco to my dying day - a Meath minister slowpedalling a Meath railway line, a county council who seemed to be bent on sabotaging it and so on and so on...

Thomas J Stamp 20-06-2012 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by dowlingm (Post 68277)
I think if there was money to build Phase 2 there would be money to refit the 27s...

I will never understand that fiasco to my dying day - a Meath minister slowpedalling a Meath railway line, a county council who seemed to be bent on sabotaging it and so on and so on...

if irish rail was a private company with big pockets it could lobby government in much the same way as the roads lobby could. As a branch of government it could not.

fiskar 20-06-2012 19:13

Rail infrastructure such as this will the life blood of the economy going forward. You can see that in any city abroad that you visit.
The gas thing is that most motorists going to Dublin from Navan every day use the old untolled N3 to avoid the tolls and the government is using the mobile speed detecting van to try and nab them every 2nd week on the stretch into Dunshaughlin and frighten them onto the M3. That infrastructure is a pure white elephant. The rail link won't be, not the way fuel costs and congestion are going.
It might be there for my retirement in 20 years!

Mark Gleeson 20-06-2012 19:23

We have seen the full draft railway works order

The price was over 450 million and the financial case did not stack up, given it was based on assumptions of continuing growth of population in Navan the financial case today is even worse.

This is what happens when a local politician stirs things up and gives false hope

If the speed camera trap is catching people thats their own fault for speeding, its not justification for a railway.

The existence of the M3 was the end to any real prospect for the railway, the toll operator having a contract which guarantees there income, combine that with some suspect dealings of a sewer main and Meath CC, every day more and more costly obstacles appeared

karlr42 20-06-2012 22:05

It's a shame, because it leaves the existing M3 Parkway spur horribly underused and looking more a white elephant every day.

fiskar 21-06-2012 20:07

Thanks Mark, agree that every day it get harder to look at the line becoming reality unless the railway order to get the land goes through. I still want it though :D


Totally agree Karl, the M3 parkway is very under utilised. Technically I would use this in winter but the gate fee is ridulous, just adds too much to the weekly commute cost.

Mark Gleeson 21-06-2012 20:35

The original plan was for M3 parkway to actually be West of Dunshaughlin, on the north side of the Blackbull toll, this was fully investigated but beyond a generic cost excuse no serious investigation was ever undertaken

The plan made a huge amount of sense and the motorist availing of the train did not have to pay the toll

You can draw your own conclusions as to how the station found itself on the other side of the toll.

Traincustomer 21-06-2012 21:21

The following article in the Meath Chronicle a few weeks ago about a proposed bus hub is sadly the sum total of what is planned for Navan (wish it were otherwise):
http://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/ro...loted-in-navan

The necessity for a hub is certainly not questionable as the numerous bus routes serving Navan are scattered between no less than four separate main bus stops in and adjacent to the central area (Market Square, Mercy Convent, Shopping Centre and Abbeylands South opp Fire Stn.).The bus hub proposal seems to seek an utopian location which has the dual attributes of being near the town centre and having no traffic issues. Like most provincial towns Navan suffers from traffic congestion and finding a place with both attributes will be next to impossible.

The eminently sensible and very cost effective idea of using the large yard at Navan railway station has evidently been dismissed. This yard has more area than many existing Bus Éireann stations, has quite a good surface and a waiting facility could easily be developed in part of the station building. Incidentally IÉ use some rooms in the station for offices.

This really could be done for very low money - and a quality, user-friendly result at the end...

Therefore the necessity for seeking (very expensive) land on which to build this hub is very questionable indeed. I thought the country was supposed to be using money prudently but this comes across as a quite disgraceful waste of money when the town already has such an asset already in CIÉ ownership. The railway station is also within acceptable walking distance of Trimgate Street (traditional main shopping street) and the Navan Shopping Centre. It is also beside Meath County Council's offices.

Back to rail - a personal opinion is that Kilmessan station should not feature in the Navan rail plan and a spur to Trim just five miles away should instead feature.

fiskar 27-06-2012 21:59

Hi traincustomer

Forget about spurs as this rail link is a dead duck. With regard to the bus depot, I see alot of sense to it. It makes no sense waiting for a bus to Trim in bad weather when the bus to Trim originates in Drogehda where buses get snowed in and cannot get up the hill (yes, we have had the pleasure of this experience). The sooner the depot happens the better. Also when the 109 starts using the elephant motorway we maynot need the train for awhile to get into Dublin city quicker.

The quicker this all happens the better or I will need to move house.

dowlingm 28-06-2012 03:49

Could the line be extended to Dunshaughlin (as single track) without disproportionate expense (i.e. open country, few bridges or other expensive capital works)?

Of course there is a rail line to Navan already in place, just needs to be, eh, fixed up a bit :D

Traincustomer 28-06-2012 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiskar (Post 68380)
Hi traincustomer

Forget about spurs as this rail link is a dead duck. With regard to the bus depot, I see alot of sense to it. It makes no sense waiting for a bus to Trim in bad weather when the bus to Trim originates in Drogehda where buses get snowed in and cannot get up the hill (yes, we have had the pleasure of this experience). The sooner the depot happens the better. Also when the 109 starts using the elephant motorway we maynot need the train for awhile to get into Dublin city quicker.

The quicker this all happens the better or I will need to move house.

Hello fiskar, I too very much agree with the need for the bus station. It's how that bus station comes to fruition is what I have an issue with:

* the existing railway station facility only needs a very low sum spent on it (literally in tens of thousands) to make it into a fit for purpose bus station. That would principally entail two elements. Some work in the building to provide a waiting area, toilets and possible retail space. Some work outside mainly in terms of kerbing, surfacing, footpath, marking out bays and signage. The amount of work needed really is very little and would cost very little. If this had the green light in the morning it would be completed in months rather than years. Using the railway station does not mean a second rate bus station and ticks the boxes of a central walkable location and cost-effective use of existing CIÉ-owned assets and scarce public monies (Letterkenny Bus Éireann station is an example of a former railway station in bus use).

* The other option (which is the one being pursued) comes across as very wasteful (and very slow) as it will result in spending hundreds of thousands (if not into millions) to acquire the land for the bus station. Then the whole planning process for the station. Like the railway that probably will never come one could still be discussing the awaited bus station in 2015 or 2020.

That's my reasoning for favouring using the existing station. It ticks the boxes and will deliver a bus station facility for the town fast and cost-effectively.

Until around ten years ago one of the Navan-Drogheda route buses was based in Navan overnight which was sensible. But then that bus was brought back to Drogheda garage possibly due to staffing changes and to save having to pay rent as the bus used to park in private premises. Unfortunately even if the bus station goes ahead in Navan it doesn't mean that any of the buses that run on the 188 route Trim-Navan-Drogheda will be based in Navan. Could be wrong but the information seems to suggests a station and not a garage as such. A small number of Bus Éireann buses are based overnight in the Balmoral Industrial Estate whereas the rest of the buses serving Navan all come from Broadstone/Kells/Cavan/Drogheda garages.

The Cavan-Dublin buses which depart Navan Square at xx:05 for much of the day and ex Busáras at xx:30 use the M3 between Navan and Dublin but these can be full/near-full from the Co. Cavan section of the route and several "motorway expresses" are clearly needed between Navan and Dublin especially in the peaks.

Goods 31-08-2017 13:58

Navan line
 
Amazing that Navan that is easily linked by rail to Dublin has not made any progress. They will try to solve the housing crisis by more building but no strategic planning on commuter service like rail. Politicians do not think beyond the next election.

Goods 09-09-2017 09:56

Navan link
 
With the housing crisis a proper rail link to Navan would relieve the congestion in Dub and allow ppl to commute without adding more traffick to roads. The solution is in sight but there is no political creativity in Meath to drive it forward and offer a public friendly solution to those working and studying in the city. All over Europe there is a move to trains and in Ireland we are closing lines!

Traincustomer 09-09-2017 19:33

Talking of Navan the latest incarnation of the bus service to the capital comes into effect tomorrow week (17/9/2017) with the introduction of route NX averaging a scheduled 1 hour and 4 minutes from the town’s Market Square to O’Connell Street (assuming no delays en route).

While the new bus timetable is probably the best that can be done with a multitude of traffic, operational and financial constraints ultimately it is only a sticking plaster solution and as sure as night follows day bus services on this corridor will be revised again and again in the years ahead.

My personal view is that a push ought to be made to have a commuter rail service on the existing line and I believe this could be accomplished for very little as ultimately all that is required is some work to the station at Navan, automation of Beauparc level crossing and some signalling work.

It is not the perfect solution but it is a satisfactory one and would be used. Given the present predicament of rail in the country it is extremely unlikely that the Phase 2 M3 Parkway - Navan line will get over the bar in even the medium to long-term.

Thomas Morelli 16-09-2017 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traincustomer (Post 78769)
My personal view is that a push ought to be made to have a commuter rail service on the existing line and I believe this could be accomplished for very little as ultimately all that is required is some work to the station at Navan, automation of Beauparc level crossing and some signalling work.

It is not the perfect solution but it is a satisfactory one and would be used. Given the present predicament of rail in the country it is extremely unlikely that the Phase 2 M3 Parkway - Navan line will get over the bar in even the medium to long-term.

If this line is used for passenger traffic again, would it be a good idea to open a station at Duleek and reopen a small part of the Kingscourt line as far as the north end of Navan, locating a new station there as well as the main one?

Traincustomer 17-09-2017 16:11

Both ideas are very good and if money were no object both are ideal.

However I'm thinking of the solution which can be delivered at the lowest cost and implemented in the shortest possible timeframe.

A basic commuter rail service from Navan would need to be accompanied by a suite of complementary measures e.g. dedicated connecting buses from around the town (in any case the Navan town bus network is being redesigned in the near future).

In my view the main barrier to such a project is not financial but the will to actually do it; like most things rail related every conceivable project or idea will generate an artificially high price tag and a list of reasons to make it seem impossible.

Goods 21-09-2017 11:18

Naval link
 
Today it would not be possible to put the rail infrastructure in place that already exists around Navan, bridges, crossings, and even purchasing the line route. Despite this the authorities cannot come up with an imaginative idea of connecting up all this and making it accessible for commuters. The structure is already in place but the creativity and ideas are missing. Politicians in Ireland can only see new roads because there is a very powerful road building lobby that can influence the TDs but because rail is in public ownership there is less momentum. The people of Meath should insist on linking up the current infrastructure before it dissappears

Inniskeen 23-09-2017 15:46

While introducing Navan/Dublin commuter rail services via Drogheda is not the ideal option, a useful service could be established by investing a small fraction of what would be required to complete the line from Clonsilla.

The main requirement would be to upgrade the line to a sufficient standad to support up to 90 mph thus bringing the Navan to Drogheda jorney time down to 15 minutes or less. Navan trains could run limited stop beyond Drogeda, perhaps with a similar stopping pattern to the 0630 from Newry, but continuing to the Grand Canal Dock turnback. Journey time to Connolly of 55 to 65 minutes should be possible and would be sufficiently competive to attract business. Completion of the layout at Clongriffin would give some flexibility for faster trains to overtake the capacity hogging and slow moving DART trains.

This would be an interim measure to parially satisfy the demand for commuter rail services from Navan.

Thomas Morelli 23-09-2017 22:57

Would it be a good idea to have a Drogheda to Navan shuttle service that would connect with the Dublin to Belfast trains, and also the Dublin to Dundalk expresses?

ACustomer 24-09-2017 18:54

Services from Navan via Drogheda would involve more costs and complications than one might think. For a start, one would need lots of capacity enhancement between Drogheda and Dublin as it's already congested in places. Other possible projects such as an Airport link from Clongriffin and also the Interconnector already run up against constraints in the first 7 miles or so out of Connolly.

No doubt signalling improvements and plenty of options for two-way working would help, but South of Clongriffin there would be a need for 3 or 4 tracks (hugely costly because housing has been allowed close to the existing line).

Doesn't help if we have a Transport minister who is more fixated on law enforcement issues (breath tests, Sandyford Garda Station and judicial appointments) than on actual transport issues. Sorry to get political, but lack of real political will on public transport infrastructure is at the root of many problems, such as housing.

Goods 26-09-2017 08:02

Navan
 
Costs have been put forward as issues with both the Cloncilla and Drogheda options from Navan but if you compared the costs of the motorways it would be only a fraction. The key is that the infrastructure is in place but not the political will. Look at the Phoenix park tunnel. CIE resisted its introduction for years pointing to a congested Connolly and signals difficulty. In modern cities trains are moving within minutes of each other but with modern control systems this is possible. Navan is already connected by rail but has no political punch to deliver - cost is not the issue its vision and will.

Thomas Morelli 03-10-2017 20:47

Does anyone have the figures for daily journeys made on Clonsilla - M3 Parkway at the moment?

Goods 04-10-2017 11:16

nationaltransport.ie rail review 2016 has a lot of data including about Clonsilla. Of course at the moment it's a poor option for Navan commuters.

Goods 15-11-2017 03:42

Navan rail
 
https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-...time-1.3291350

The demand is there but the strategic thinking is not in the Dáil where they are only keeping an eye on the next election fixing potholes. The rail infrastructure around Dublin and especially Navan rail link should be restored.

Inniskeen 16-11-2017 17:18

Navan North, on the Kingscourt line, was part of Phase 2 of the line from Clonsilla. I would think that this would be a common sense part of any reopening either via Dunboyne or Drogheda.

Not sure that I would commit to opening a station at Duleek given that costs would be high and it would be another drag on the journey time.

comcor 16-11-2017 17:27

Is the alignment up from M3 Parkway in a good enough state that there's any significant financial benefit in using it?

I was wondering if a future airport line could be extended Ashbourne and Ratoath to join it near Dunshaughlin. It would mean a lot more significant population centres on the way to Navan than going entirely up the old alignment.

Mark Gleeson 19-11-2017 21:19

Alignment is a bit of mess, multiple points where the alignment is encroached

M3 - Navan was priced at 450 million and it didn't stack up

Coming over from Dublin airport is unlikely as the alignment from Clongiffin is overland and that keeps costs down

Goods 10-12-2018 13:53

Reopen Navan railway link
 
"The Government’s recently published Project Ireland 2040, comprising the National Planning Framework (NPF) and the National Development Plan (NDP), confirms a number of key public transport investment priorities. It also recognises that over the period of the plan it will be very important to examine the role that the interurban rail network can play in enhancing regional connectivity. In this regard, the NDP notes that the NTA is required to review its Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy every six years and by the end of 2021. This review will include a reappraisal of the proposed extension of the Dunboyne/M3 Parkway line to Navan taking into account the scale of new and planned development along the route, and this will allow for its consideration during the NDP Mid-Term Review".

James Shields 11-12-2018 13:32

I don't think there's any political interest in the Navan rail project in the current government, and I really don't think it has any chance as long as we have a FF/FG led government.

However, I do think it will resurface eventually.

The old alignment is still fairly intact, though there's not much trace of the railway to be found. There are a few parts that have been built on, and it would have to be evaluated whether it will be more viable to reroute or reclaim the original alignment. Using the old alignment should at least mean a level straight path a new trackbed can be built on.

A new alignment from the airport is an interesting idea, but I can't see it being considered with the current Metro plan as it would be 3-4 times the length of the line from the city centre, and would have radically different service frequency. If a Clongriffin-Airport DART extension was under consideration, then perhaps they could look at extending that to Ashbourne/Ratoath, and following the N2 past Kentstown, before joining with the Navan-Drogheda line to the east of Navan. It's hard to see this being the cheaper option, and it would probably need 4-tracking of the Howth Junction to Connolly section to cope with the traffic.

I think the only viable way a Navan line might happen in the shorter term is via the Navan-Drogheda line, which would need to be upgraded for passenger use. The problem is the Drogheda commuter line is already pretty busy, and fitting extra trains into the gaps between DARTs is getting increasingly difficult.

Mark Gleeson 11-12-2018 14:35

Had the M3 not been built we would have a railway to Navan, no question.

Had the M3 Parkway station been on the northern side of the toll as was the original plan to site it at Drumree near Dunshaughlin, the story could be different again.

There were some serious games going on with the M3 which may justify some investigation, the planning docs alone were questionable and missed the magic bridge issue where the M3 blocked the railway.

Goods 11-12-2018 22:11

The likelihood is that the Navan rail project was scuppered by vested interests that had the ear of the politicians in a similar way to many major infrastructural projects in Ire. Public interest projects rely on senior civil servants to implement them but they must have the political support to make the agenda in the first instance. So far Navan rail links appears to be missing the political punch depite the senior political figures that hail from Meath.

Goods 23-04-2019 09:56

Navan railway link
 
https://www.oireachtas.ie/ga/debates...2019-04-18/25/
Navan rail line motion in the Dail. So much discussion when political action necessary to reopen railway to Navan this is an overdue public transport project that will alleviate the congestion on commute to Dublin. No vision in govt and no fight in Navan for this option.

Goods 26-04-2019 13:26

https://www.eolasmagazine.ie/the-rail-way-to-growth/
Looks like Irish Rail have seen the light regarding rail development with very positive outlook and thinking reflecting the increasing passenger figures. Public will use the rail services if they are efficient and railway lines like Navan are an option for communities in the future.

Goods 11-05-2019 08:12

No carriages to meet demand
 
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breaki...23-922876.html
Poor transport planning has meant that there are insuffient carriages for commuter demand. Rail is the solution to carbon crisis yet it’s obstructed at every turn.

James Shields 14-05-2019 10:59

That Eolas piece appears to have been written by Irish Rail! I'd have liked some critical analysis rather than a IE press piece.

There are new trains allegedly on the way - in a few years. Our government knows that rail investment is needed, but is doing everything it can to kick the can down the road.

If we know that new trains are coming, and that electrification will be the future, why not start work on the electrification of the Maynooth, Kildare and Drogheda lines now? Some of the new trains will be dual mode diesel/electric, but the sooner electrification starts, the more rail can contribute to emissions reduction. Does it make any sense to delay the project till new rolling stock arrives?


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