How to improve the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line?
 

Hi,

I have been reading a bit about the Limerick – Nenagh – Ballybrophy line as I could never understand how the line was so unsuccessful. Hoping people here might inform with the issues affecting the line. I would love to hear any comments or suggestions on how this train line could best serve its route.

I am not appealing for any additional services at the moment. My proposal would be to approach Irish Rail to request they change the time the train currently departs Limerick Colbert station on weekday mornings to 05:30 am on the Limerick – Nenagh – Ballybrophy line?

• A commuter train arriving in Dublin Heuston at 10:00 am is not much use to any employees wishing to work in Dublin City or anywhere else between Nenagh & Ballybrophy or between Ballybrophy and Dublin.
• For students, 10:00 am is too late for anyone trying to get to college/university in Dublin or accessing a transfer to Maynooth.
• An earlier train that would arrive in Dublin Heuston before 09:00 am would receive far more customers and could give a boost to the Limerick – Nenagh - Ballybrophy line.
• With the imminent reopening of the Phoenix Park Tunnel, a transfer at Kildare station would make it possible to travel from Castleconnell, Birdhill, Nenagh, Cloughjordan or Roscrea to Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara, Pearse or Grand Canal Dock in the heart of Dublin city centre rather than just Heuston station as is the current situation in just over 2 hours.
• From these stations, commuters could transfer to the DART Network and access Dublin North and South.
• This could be very useful infrastructure to the municipal districts of Limerick East, Nenagh, Thurles/Templemore, Borris – in – Ossory/Mountmellick & Portlaoise.
• Irish rail and individual municipal districts could easily advertise this commuter train with slogans like “Avoid the N7 traffic” or “Avoid the M7 roadworks” when the M7 widening project gets underway.
• A journey on a train would be more economical, better for the environment and could potentially save the Limerick – Nenagh – Ballybrophy line from inevitable closure. The line is not working as it is, time to try something different with the timetable.


Once the Phoenix Park tunnel line opens, it should be advertised that there will be a Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line train every weekday morning arriving at Heuston station no later than 08:30 for transfers to Luas and Dublin bus.

It should also be advertised that there will be a stop at Kildare station for those wishing to transfer onto the Phoenix park line and direct access to Drumcondra, Connolly, Tara, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock and the DART network in the heart of Dublin city.


If the Limerick – Nenagh - Ballybrophy line doesn’t make some changes it will surely close eventually.

I know the line is in need of investment to improve speed to compete with other modes of transport but I don’t know exactly what works are required. Be great if someone could fill me in.

I have read there are 25 level crossings on the line that would need to be automated? And that there would be at least €8 to €10 million investment required to make the line competitive.

Fantasy proposal
 

I totally understand that financially this is not viable and there is not enough rail users using the line at present.... However.

Wouldn't it make more sense to have a stop just south of Borris - in - Ossory itself and a spur off the current line following a route North of the M7 to join up with the Cork line somewhere between Ballybrophy and Portlaoise. Kilcotton or Ashbrook area.

I am sure all of this has been looked at and reviewed before but I have only recently taken an interest in the subject.

I think unless 50% of the limerick traffic are travelling on this line it is unlikely to ever make a profit. The only way to get limerick people to use it is to invest in the line to reduce travel times.

Welcome

As you no doubt know a direct Limerick Nenagh Dublin service was provided in recent years providing a 0825 arrival at Dublin Heuston.

It has been alleged a (former) government minister bypassed the established procedure and left Irish Rail with no choice but to add the service. The very first document on file concerning this change was an email sent by RUI querying rumors of a timetable change, there then followed a pile of communication, which captures the make it up as it went on routine.

The service was subsequently altered to a 0833 arrival without the approval of the National Transport Authority in breech of contract requirements. It was withdrawn fairly quickly due the significant costs in running the service with minimal passenger take up as well as significant negative impacts on other services

Unless 30-40 million in capital funding can be found the line is not viable and any plan should focus on Limerick and not Dublin. Far more people in Nenagh going to Limerick than Dublin.

No intercity trains will use the Phoenix Park Tunnel route, it will be for Dublin area commuters only.

This is a pretty common pattern over the entire network. Aside from the Cork line, journey times are increasing almost everywhere. This is partially due to the idiotic 10 minute DART timetable but there must be a degree of accumulated maintenance deficit involved.

The new timetable pushes my commute outside of the threshold of tolerability and I'm going to have to figure another plan after nearly 13 years of commuting.

The reality is that unless there is significant investment and improvement in journey times, Irish Rail may as well just start shutting lines down because it is a waste of money pouring operational subsidies into services that are no use to anyone. One could be forgiven for suspecting this is the plan anyway.

A transfer at Kildare onto a phoenix Park Tunnel line train would make it available to intercity trains?

I can see the Phoenix Park Tunnel line being an absolutely astounding success. A relatively small investment for huge rewards.

Maybe this should lead to a long term project of upgrading the entire rail network to an agreed standard. I think this would be a good use of national infrastructure capital? What would the opinions here be?

Any change in Sligo line journey times has nothing to do with the 10 minute DART timetable but rather would be down to changes in the speed limits on the Sligo line.

We have yet to see the final timetable so I wouldn't be rushing to a decision just yet.

On a related note, I see that Limerick - Ennis is still closed which is going on for four months now and they are estimating the end of April before services can resume. This is another example of a line which either needs investment to resolve this problem or to be closed down. A railway line that closes for 5 months is of no use to anybody. This line seems to close for at least a couple of months every year.

This is the reality after 8 years of cutbacks, I don't see how the status quo can continue for a lot longer. The system either needs closures or more money going into track maintenance or people are going to find better ways to get around.

The changes on the Sligo line have little to do with either speed restrictions or the vanity 10 minute interval DART service. The three issues affecting the Sligo line are

1) Further reduced rolling stock allocation.

2) Painfully slow scheduling between Connolly and Maynooth.

3) Use of Sligo services to provide short haul commuter stops at Kilcock and Enfield.

There are a few speed restrictions associated with accommodation and field crossings but these are not sufficient in number to have any material affect on scheduling.

Sligo is not the topic here

While there was an early morning through service from Limerick via Nenagh, the journey time was pathetic and reliability poor. The line suffers from a combination of bad order track, low speed limits, minimal service frequency and hopelessly uncompetitive journey times.

I am not convinced that salvation lies in services oriented towards Limerick bound commuters unless there was to be a substantial increase in frequency and a significant reduction in journey times. Traffic towards Dublin is less driven by frequency than by scheduling both in terms of journey times and suitability for commuters, students and shoppers. The most significant thing that could be done in the short term would be to re-orient the junction at Ballybrophy to face Dublin rather than Cork - this alone would save of the order of twenty minutes and if combined with fast running on the mainline would provide moderately competitive journey times from Dublin to and from Nenagh and Roscrea.

Has there ever been a study done investigating the feasibility of adding a spur off the line just South of Borris in Ossory to the main line South of Portlaoise? What would it cost? It seems like the best option by far to make the line viable and supporters of making the line viable again should be campaigning for such a study to be done?

I dont expect this to happen in the medium term but if an active and vocal campaign began to advocate for it maybe someday it could happen.

Do you mean like the blue lines on the image? It would cost perhaps €2 million per km and increase maintenance costs, but deliver no appreciable service improvement. It would somewhat parallel / duplicate the existing main line.

Improving the existing infrastructure would be much more useful.

What is the current setup for this line for signalling and level crossings? Are these still all manual or have they largely been sorted out? If they're still stuck needing a couple of dozen people just to keep the line open, it's hard to see any long-term future for the line.

Sorry but your link isn't working for me but I will assume we are referring to the same thing.

My assumption would be that the appreciable service improvement would be the improvement of journey time, which would increase customers which would eventually result in a profit for the line that could be invested in the increased maintenance costs of employing new staff etc or improving other parts of the line such as the level crossings etc

I'm not in anyway advocating this in the short to medium term but if the line is to be made viable people interested need to decide what the most important approach to make the line viable is and speak with a unified voice about it.

All signalled manually via three signal boxes at Killonan Junction, Birdhill and Roscrea.

All level crossings bar one are manually operated (and there are a lot!).

Is there anyway to find out exactly how many level crossings there are? Is there a GIS map viewer or anything?

12 in total - 10 between Killonan Jctn and Birdhill, and 2 between Roscrea and Ballybrophy.

There are a reasonable number of accommodation crossings on top of that.

Hi Berney,

Thanks for the reply. Do the accommodation crossing impact on journey times to the same as the level crossings do? Has there ever been an attempt to automate the level crossings or remove them completely?

All crossings impact on journey times.

I'm not aware of any modernisation plans.

I'm afraid you're on a hiding to nothing here.

The line would would require hundreds of millions of euro to be brought up to an acceptable standard and that is frankly needed more elsewhere.

Ah I like a challenge, and it's something to say to politicians when they come to the door. It's not the most important project by a good distance but small regular investment could improve the line to keep it active.

I agree you but I would just say investment is needed equally elsewhere. The line needs to be upgraded... When was the last big investment in this line?

On this map: http://www.irishrail.ie/timetables/live-map-intercity zoom in to Tipperary and click 'Level Crossings'.

This is a work in progress: http://product.itoworld.com/map/258?...ullscreen=true vehicle crossings (automatic, manual or accommodation) in green, pedestrian crossings in blue.

ITO World is based on OpenStreetMap, which is a work in progress. The Irish Rail data is generally more complete, but is variable in quality.

As Berney Arms says, despite relaying half the line in recent years as well as renewing fences, bridges and level crossings, Irish Rail have almost zero interest in the route. Little attempt has been made to make the service relevant and consequently it justs limps aimlessly along delivering little or no value to the taxpayer.

Image fixed:
http://railusers.ie/forum/attachment...d=145919690 8

Something like this is what I was thinking. It would surely increase speeds if the train didnt have to travel to Ballybrophy and switch trains? Am I missing something there?

http://www.railusers.ie/forum/attach...d=145924681 5

Sorry I dont know how to get the attached image to work.

Great links... Thanks so much.

Wow there is so much to it. Limerick to Birdhill has so many level crossings it would need massive investment. As would Nenagh to Ballybrophy.

All very depressing. What would be the best use of money to invest in the line though?

I understand. Its a shame as it serves an area of the midwest without many jobs and an improved public infrastructure for the area to bring workers where there are jobs. Limerick or Dublin would be a great help.

I am not a fanatic, I totally understand that there are far more worthy projects. Dart Underground etc.

But if there was say €10 million to spend on improving the line. Where would that be best spent?

Sadly, 10 million to invest in the line would probably be better spent establishing a decent bus-based rural transport network in the area. But assuming you were investing it in rail, the best return is probably in level crossing automation. Each one saves at least 100k per annum and it makes it much easier to keep the line open for longer hours.

And how much does it cost to automate a level crossing?

There are 29 level crossings on this map if you zoom into the Limerick - Nenagh - Ballybrophy line.

http://www.irishrail.ie/timetables/live-map-intercity/?

Are any of these 29 already automated? There are 3 (A)'s when you click on the individual level crossings. There are also U's, CX's, occupied etc. I am unsure what these mean.

Lets be realistic here, 30-40 million might cover a re-signalling and level crossing automation and sorting out the platforms at Birdhill, Nenagh and Roscrea as well as adding in a crossover at Ballybrophy to simplify through running towards Dublin requiring only a single reversal in both directions vs the current 1 or 3. Proposing new lines is crazy.

Won't make a huge difference in running times, but would make a massive difference to the running costs.

No line anywhere makes a profit, its more a case of minimizing the loss.

You can't divert the Limerick Junction - Limerick shuttle as that walks away from the Cork Limerick market. Even if you spent a stack of money you would be lucky to get a 75mph railway, the 100mph route to Limerick Junction and 80mph to Limerick would still be faster by a wide margin.

To be honest if there was 30-40 million in cash available a complete rebuild and re-signalling of Limerick station would be much higher on the list

Why is it crazy to propose a more direct and faster line? The entire network needs to be upgraded it seems and this line is be far the worst in the country. The government decide what part of the rail infrastructure is upgraded. Surely that investment needs to be share through the regions. Not getting into a Dublin v the rest argument. I am all for Metro North and Dart Underground.

When is the last time this line received a significant upgrade. No wonder people dont use it. Its dreadful in every way.

Let's assume there was 30 or 40 million to invest in this line which is extremely hypothetical. Which would do more for the communities along the line - double the number of trains per day or closure combined with a radical increase in bus transport in the area resulting in hourly buses from every town with a population of 1,000 or more to the mainline and/or Limerick.

Because that's what 40 million and the railway's operational subsidy would give you. You'd probably get a greenway as well to preserve the route and attract tourists.

It needs a new signalling system, large sections of new track and probably structural work to bridges, culverts, cuttings, embankments, station works

I'm not sure that savings would be that high. Level crossing keepers aren't paid a whole lot (but typically get a cottage) and the hours are limited - a few minutes at a time, 4-5 times a day.

About €750,000 each.

"CX" may be short-hard for "crossing".

"CCTV" means an automated level crossing, run from a central location and can be used 24 hours

"Attended" means there is a human presence during working hours.

"Occupation" seems to be a private crossing, within one property - typically a farm - commonly called an accommodation crossing.

"XN164" "Level crossing" (X), "Nenagh Line" (N) "Reference number" (Level crossing number 164 measure from Ballybrohy) Numbers are in order, but not necessarily sequential. Some crossings will have been closed, e.g in the 400 metres south of Lisnagry, there used to be 4 level crossings, now only 2. I'm not sure if all crossings are on the Irish Rail map - some field crossings seem not to be on it.

this is a bizzare topic and no mistake, its like we're all gone back in time.

Lest anyone mistake marko of RUI as being pale rail here, I am as far as i know the only person on this forum who actually uses this line and was defintitly the only one who used the early morning commuter train to Dublin. In fact one glorious day I was the only passenger on board and had an entire express train to myself in morning rush hour from Portlaoise into Dublin. Many thanks to Alan Kelly.

Irish Rail are at the moment replacing the wooden sleeper track with concrete between Ballybrophy and Roscrea. This tells you all you need to know about the line. It operates for two reasons - firstly, so that it can be closed if Gov demands for cutbacks get very fierce. Secondly, to keep some lads in Irish Rail in Limerick with something to do. We have long said that the trains on the branch are going in the other direction to the rush hour traffic. To be fair IR did start doing the splits so that one car goes back to limerick and the other to Ballybrophy, but in reality they need to move the crews to portlaoise and start the service at Brophy to get to Limerick for working hours and then come back in the evening. Hell, you can even have it shuttling up and down all day long causing nobody and harm or offence.

The commuter thing to dublin was heavily advertised, it was in the local papers, the radio, there were posters in many shops in the towns along the route. There was no uptake simply because the numbers heading east do not exist in any great quantity. Even Templemore/Ballybrophy has small numbers - there comes a point when the commuting day is simply too long to make Dublin as a destination desirable. By contrast Limerick is nearer, and accordingly gets a lot of commuter traffic.

I think that this is the cheapest and easiest way of making the most of the line which means it wont be done.

As for building new lines..... there just isn't the potential customer base to justify it. Even at the height of the madness Roscrea was not going to be a dormer town, Templemore was next on that map, and Borris in Ossory is just down the road from Ballybrophy station. That money will be needed to make what already exists more attractive.

"Like we are all gone back in time" similar to the reconditioning and use of the Phoenix park tunnel?

I am advocating improving the line gradually over time. Having a plan in place for the most constructive way to improve journey times.

Allowing the line to die would be a massive shame.

we've long campaigned for the PPT to be used and despite being told on many an occasion by IE that it couldnt be done, lo it has been. (almost).

the line is being gradually improved. In the same way that the forth bridge is being gradually painted.

We've been advocating our ideas on the nenagh timetable since about 2007 as far as i remember.

Yes, it would be gross folly to have it close, irish railway history is replete with such folly.

Talk in the papers that the line is up for the chop again...

I'm a big supporter of the Ballybrophy - Nenagh - Limerick line but no one is going to use it as it is. I searched earlier for a train from Dublin to Nenagh on Saturday. 3 hours 10 minutes... I'd actually drive down and back to Dublin in that time.

I mean I don't want the line closed but I would rather they close it and invest the money more wisely elsewhere rather than keep that poor service going. It's a waste of time as it is. I'm a supporter of the line and I won't use it at 3 hours 10 minutes.

Limerick is 40 km further from Dublin than Nenagh and the train from Dublin to limerick is 1 hour 10'minutes faster.

So either invest in the line and improve the speeds or just mothball it until we find a massive oil field between Annacotty and Nenagh.

Limerick Junction to Limerick Colbert ~ 40 km - Journey time 26 minutes

Nenagh to Limerick Colbert ~ 40 km - Journey time 60 minutes

I mean how can they expect people to use that service?

Why is it not possible to book Dublin to Limerick via this line? I know it's slower and requires a change, but there are plenty of other examples where longer journey times via non-direct routes are offered eg Dublin to Waterford via Limerick Junction or Dublin to Ennis via Athenry. Looks like there are 2 daily trains from Dublin that connect at Ballybrophy.

You can only book Dublin to Castleconnell (the last stop before Limerick), so presumably you'd need to pay extra on board to go to Limerick.

When visiting towns across Ireland it's more interesting to go a different route in each direction if you have the time.

Even assuming only a small take up, it should reduce the reported per passenger sudsidy quite a bit.

Every one of the options for a link to the Nenagh Branch is a Cork InterCity with a connection to Limerick at Limerick Junction.

So, a passenger will arrive in Limerick earlier if they change in Limerick Junction.

As far as I can see, the Irish Rail booking engine won't offer an option where it is possible to leave at the same time or later and arrive earlier (leaving later and arriving at the same time does seem to be allowed).

The Ballybrophy/Limerick line is afficted by level crossings, particularly between Birdhill and Killonan. There are a very large number of accommodation crossings as well but oddly enough they seem to have more of an impact on this line than any other line. For instance there are plenty of accommodation crossings between Limerick and Limerick Junction as well and although the general speed limit on this line has been reduced from 80 to 60 mph it is still well above the 30/40 mph deemed necessary on long lengths of upgraded track on the Nenagh line.