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Unread 23-02-2013, 01:27   #1
hellogoodbye
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Default Fixed penalty notice not filled in properly

I received a fixed penalty notice recently for some complete and utter nonsensical reason. I'm in the middle of appealing it but I heard tell that being given an incorrectly filled fixed penalty notice may lead to the fine being annulled. All that the inspector filled in was the tick for the €100 box, the "unpaid" fare and the total due. Nothing else was filled.
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Unread 23-02-2013, 13:10   #2
Mark Gleeson
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It is irrelevant what notice you have, if the original held by Irish Rail has the details noted on it then its legal as thats the copy presented in court.

Last time I checked the standard notice receipt issued did not have any field for address, see attached

What is relevant is that you were stopped, informed you had committed an offence and issued with a unpaid fare notice informing you of your obligation to pay within 21 days to avoid possible court action.

If you had no ticket, despite boarding at a station where a ticket was available (regardless of the queue, or claims the train was early), over travelled, travelled on a child/student ticket as an adult or travelled first class on a standard ticket, no appeal is valid.
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Unread 23-02-2013, 13:20   #3
hellogoodbye
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The thing is, I wasn't stopped without a ticket. I had a ticket and I had evidence on my person that i've been paying above and beyond the fare required of me for a considerable length of time on a routine basis. I never have nor intend to ever evade the fare required of me.

My case is as follows:
I buy Student Weekly tickets and have been doing so for the last two years (I occasionally have had to buy full fare adult tickets due to poorly maintained vending machines). Unbeknownst to me, the student travelcard that I've kept in the back of my wallet since last year had an expiry date and needed to be renewed. Considering that after I used it for the first time and memorised my ID number, I never looked at it again and considering that i've been checked twice already this year with no comment being made by any inspector, I had no idea that anything was amiss and didn't think much of it.

But that's not the kicker. The big problem I have is that they accept College ID as a valid demonstration of student status (Like most sensible companies) when they feel like it as evidenced here by the page aptly named "Students - Put your College ID to good use!". I had my College ID on me and the inspector checked it and there was no doubt in either party's mind that I was a student (Although no verbal communication to this effect was made by the inspector).

Considering that Irish Rail have set a precedent by accepting College ID as a demonstration of student status, I do not see how they can deny my student status.

Last edited by hellogoodbye : 23-02-2013 at 13:33.
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Unread 23-02-2013, 14:33   #4
Mark Gleeson
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Terms and conditions state quite clearly with respect to the promotion concerning the use of student ID cards issued by third parties

Quote:
not applicable to weekly or monthly tickets.
So you must have a valid student travelcard to avail of weekly or monthly tickets, as has been the way for several decades. As you previously obtained a student travelcard you acknowledged that fact.

You did not have a valid student travel card and therefore were correctly fined.

Nothing we can do
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Unread 23-02-2013, 15:48   #5
hellogoodbye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
Terms and conditions state quite clearly with respect to the promotion concerning the use of student ID cards issued by third parties

So you must have a valid student travelcard to avail of weekly or monthly tickets, as has been the way for several decades. As you previously obtained a student travelcard you acknowledged that fact.

You did not have a valid student travel card and therefore were correctly fined.
Why on Earth is there any difference? Surely all they need is evidence that I am a student. This inconsistency in policy is completely illogical and bereft of reason or justice. I had no intention to evade anything or defraud anyone. With exclusively justice in mind (And not their unjust and inconsistent by-laws, terms and conditions and whatever else), being a verifiable student I was doing absolutely nothing wrong by buying a student ticket. As far as I was concerned, everything was in order and I was doing what I routinely did for the past few terms. I've been checked tens of times with nothing more than a "thank you" from inspectors being said.

I have never once heard of a business who treats their regular customers in such a manner. I understand they need to protect their revenue streams and root out people attempting to use the train fraudulently but they're not doing that here. All they're doing is completely turning off a regular customer (And source of revenue) from their company. With or without the redundant extra student card, what bloody difference will it to make to their revenue streams? Are they losing money by my missing the fact that travelcards can expire? No. What are they gaining from this utterly ridiculous position they're taking? An extra €100 fished out from their customer's wallet and what else? A disgruntled regular who will lose any loyalty they had for the company. A disgruntled customer who will at any given moment jump ship to another transport method and recommend their peers to do so too if the opportunity arises. That, to my mind, is not revenue protection. All it is to me is a blockheaded and neanderthal approach to customer relations that does nothing but harm their company. (Allow myself to note that I am not calling anyone in particular stupid! I'm calling the system they have in place stupid.)

If the so-called "Revenue Protection Unit" won't hear me out and want their pound of flesh, they may receive it. But mark my words, if they think their harsh, unjust and inconsistent policies are going to protect their revenue streams they're very much mistaken. At the first moment I find an alternative I will ensure that their company does not see another red cent from me.

I take huge and great offense at being made out to be a fraudster when my intentions were anything but. In any and all ways that are available to me, I will attempt to make my case to them. If they will not listen, the only just conclusion to this farce is for me to ensure that they do not succeed in their role and achieve the exact opposite they've been tasked to do.

Irish Rail are making huge losses. They have essentially made it out that I was attempting to defraud them and have asked me to give them an extra €100 and to repay my fare for my troubles. If they think this is how a business ought to relate with the regular customers that provide them with a regular source of revenue and that this kind of approach is going to help fix things and bring their business back to profitability, 2016 may yet be a big year for the company but unfortunately perhaps not in the positive "return to profitability" sense they're forecasting.

One final thing, are you aware of any supervisors or department heads or any one with elevated authority in Irish Rail who I can speak to about the issue? Thanks for your help and thanks for reading my (Very long, I apologise) post so far.

Last edited by hellogoodbye : 23-02-2013 at 15:51.
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Unread 24-02-2013, 18:26   #6
Mark Gleeson
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Irish Rail has a bona fide case, and by your own admission you did not have a valid student travelcard.

There are terms and conditions, thats life. You broke the rules, you got caught. The rules are not in anyway unreasonable or hidden. Student fares are concession fares and so the terms can be changed at any time.

Comply with the rules, you get a good deal. If you can't comply you pay for a different option, but if you lie or manipulate the system to pass yourself off as qualifying you will quite rightly face the full face of the law.

There is no legal obligation on Irish Rail to consider any appeal, if you want to contest the fine, wait for the summons to the district court.
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Unread 25-02-2013, 01:39   #7
hellogoodbye
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post

Comply with the rules, you get a good deal. If you can't comply you pay for a different option, but if you lie or manipulate the system to pass yourself off as qualifying you will quite rightly face the full face of the law.
Lie or manipulate the system?

That's the warped view that Irish Rail have towards all their customers. It's a good thing it's not true for most cases, including this particular one.
Quote:
There is no legal obligation on Irish Rail to consider any appeal, if you want to contest the fine, wait for the summons to the district court.
Legal obligation? No, they certainly don't have any obligation to do anything by law but they'd be incredibly foolish to do away with discretion and reason.

I ask you this. Does it make business sense for them to treat a regular customer who made a very slight oversight who has been providing them with a regular source of revenue for a very long period of time as a scumbag attempting to defraud them? I ask you this also. Do you agree that Irish Rail should use more discretion in these matters to ensure that their actions actually protect revenue streams? Making a regular and formerly loyal customer hate the company and the brand with a burning passion is not protecting revenue streams but quite the opposite as far as i'm concerned.

I would have no problem paying a fine if I had received a warning beforehand and/or if I actually did something immoral.

One question, regardless of what goes in any appeal process, so long as I pay before the specified date I cannot be prosecuted for anything?

Also, are you contactable by PM or some other private method of communication as I have a question to ask that would best not be discussed on a public forum?

Thank you!
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Unread 26-02-2013, 11:38   #8
Thomas Ralph
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mark.gleeson@railusers.ie

If you pay the fine within the prescribed period you cannot be prosecuted.

I agree with what Mark has pointed out; discounted tickets come with terms and conditions and you failed to comply with them on this occasion. The discount on season tickets is for student travelcard holders, not students.
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Unread 26-02-2013, 16:27   #9
Thomas J Stamp
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you memorised your student number but didnt know the expiry date on your card?

even when i was a student (and that was now all of three decades ago) we knew you had to keep them renewed.

Anyway, you're taking it to PM so it's hello and goodbye to this thread.
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