general trend in discourtesy - Page 2

Dave · 19-07-2006, 12:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostcarpark

Alas, you put too much faith in the human race. I've seen people give up their seat to an elderly/pregnant person, only to have some git in a suit jump in and grab the seat before they can take it. The person said, "hey, that wasn't for you," but only got a shrug in response. Someone else ended up giving their seat to the deserving person rather than making a fuss. Thankfully, I haven't seen this happen in Dublin yet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

If you leave it to chance, there's no hope of the intended person getting it.

I don't advocate violence but a good smack in the mouth to said individual in the suit might teach him a lesson

James Shields · 19-07-2006, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

I don't advocate violence but a good smack in the mouth to said individual in the suit might teach him a lesson

I might have obliged if I'd been in range, but I was standing at the other end of the carriage. Probably a good thing, as I could do without a run-in with London Metropoliton Police.

Louise Ball · 20-07-2006, 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Firstly it is extremely inadvisable for a heavily pregnant women to travel during the rush hour, you need a doctors cert to fly. The age old question of over weight vs pregnant haunts blokes

Mark, i dont normally post but i could'nt let this go!!

There are hundreds of women who MUST travel on the train at peak times because they do work, they do have hospital appointments and they do have lives!!

As Derek has announced, i am working on a campaign at the moment relating to this issue and i would hope that you and i can set up a sub-committee so i can educate you on the fine art of being a women in the modern world? We can stick a cushion up your top with weights in it and give you an idea of what its like to carry that weight around all day.

I assume Thomas J would get in on this one as well, he's plenty of experience with pregnant women.
As for pregnant V fat, you take your chances in this life!

Mark Gleeson · 20-07-2006, 12:47

Anyone fancy the 17:13 Pearse Dundalk tonight, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, its its hay day without air conditioning it was a mobile medical experiment in stamina how long can you stand in 30+ degrees

Safety is the key concern at all times it would be fairly trivial to construct a list of no go trains where crowding is such that even if someone did offer you a seat you still have a 8-10 foot wall of people to push through. It is a miracle that no one has been seriously injured yet, statistically we are overdue an accident, IE know that.

We have a fairly unique situation in Dublin where heavy crush loading is practice not a rare occurance, the busiest train in the UK takes only 1200 (12 coaches with first class), in Dublin there would be upwards of 10 trains each day that break 1200, the 8:08 Malahide to Dun Laoghaire between Connolly and Tara Street loads to 1400 ish on a bad day.

We have to be realistic the rush hour is a no go for anyone who shouldn't be left in a stressful situation or left standing for a long period of time that covers pregnant women through to the elderly. The fact crowding is so bad is something we can beat IE with

MrX · 20-07-2006, 13:08

I have lived in London (recently) and would have to say that the commuter behaviour on board the London Underground and other systems is light years better than Dublin.

It's incrediable the way people over here just push onto the Luas making it almost impossible to get off. I've had incidents where people have refused to let me out of the Luas, just wouldn't move despite a lot of asking, tapping on the shoulders etc. Leaving me with no option except to be very pushy and squeeze my way off. There was still plenty of space up the coach they simply wouldn't get away from the door area.
My elderly grandmother was on the redline and swore she'd never use it again. She was trying to get off at Smithfield and ended up stuck on the tram the whole way to Connolly and walking back! She now won't use the trams at all unless they're relatively empty and prefers to use buses if it's busy.

And, while that particular incident mentioned above in London was bad. In general I find that Londoners will automatically give up a seat to an elderly person, disabled person or pregnant lady without having to be asked.

They also generally don't try and board a train / bus while other people are exiting.

Seems that no one has any cop on about use of public transport here anymore.

Both Luas and DART vechicles/platform automatic announcements need to be shouting "PLEASE ALLOW PASSENGERS TO LEAVE THE TRAIN BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO BOARD!!!"

As for heavily pregnant women using public transport. I was on a tube one afternoon and a lady boarded who was litterally in labour. We (some passengers and a London underground lady) had to pretty much lift her off, link her along to the escalators.. get her up onto street level and call an ambulance. She'd been attempting to get to the hospital by tube and her waters broke en route! Thankfully, there was an ambulance along within about 5 mins.

Thomas J Stamp · 20-07-2006, 13:13

Quote:

I assume Thomas J would get in on this one as well, he's plenty of experience with pregnant women.

Erm, yeah...... but I'm not dressing in drag with a bleeding baloon up a jumper again.

Mark is probably tapping his pipe against his desk at work.... hurmppph, women, they relly should know their place.....

Thomas J Stamp · 20-07-2006, 13:15

Quote:

As Derek has announced, i am working on a campaign at the moment relating to this issue

Nice for Derek to announce it for you.......

Favourite film:

Starring Ewan McGregor as MarkG

James Shields · 20-07-2006, 14:07

Well the woman sitting next to me got up to let a pregnant woman sit this morning (I was stuck in my PDA and hadn't seen her), but I managed a last moment save for chivilry and said "you sit back down, I'll stand".

Louise Ball · 20-07-2006, 14:37

I'll put manners on the lot of you yet!!

sandraoh · 20-07-2006, 14:50

I used to commute from Mullingar to Dublin and I was on crutches at one stage for 2 weeks. People just wouldn't give me a seat. I used to get a bus out to UCD and it was the same on that.

I used to have to stand in a crammed train until a seat came free usually around Maynooth. Even when a seat came free it was like a race to get to it before someone else took it. The worst thing was where a woman said to me at connolly that I could have her seat when she got off in Maynooth. Thanks a million!

I remember also being on an extremely quiet, almost empty lunchtime train and putting my heavily bandaged leg up on the seat opposite. No shoe, just bandages. A grumpy IE man in an orange jacket came and shouted at me and told me seats were not for feet.

Graham · 20-07-2006, 22:04

At the risk of playing devil's advocate here, there is a certain reason for people not giving up seats: most commuters I imagine are simply very tired, especially in the evenings. If they've been vying for a seat all week, and they finally get one after a long day, and maybe only two days in the week, the last thing they want to do is give it up – especially in the context of standing for up to an hour as the potential alternative.

I appreciate that is no excuse for allowing somebody to stand who clearly needs a seat more than you do, but it is fair to say that the public in general isn't quite the shower of ignorant b*stards as is often painted - uncharitable perhaps, but not wholly inconsiderate. There is an unstated rule of 'we're all in this together', so whether you're 25 or 55 you take what you're given; everyone is tired, every one is peed off, so just be quiet and get on with it - some of us will stand today, others tomorrow etc.

There is also a certain element of waiting for someone else to give up a seat before you have to, though certainly this does not explain how some worthy people are left standing after more than a minute or two – completely unacceptable.

Where the problem arises is when this 'commuter culture' of taking what you're given doesn't take into account 'outsiders' - the elderly, pregnant women, people with a physical impairment etc etc - often persons that don't use commuter services normally. Commuters also switch into a self-absorption mode, sitting down and taking out a book to read, or going asleep, or spreading the broadsheet that restricts one's view of other passengers - all blocking out the outside world, which is understandable but it makes them oblivious to others’ needs.

So it is often up to other commuters to inform each other of a person that shouldn’t be standing, and similarly sitting people also ought to pay more attention, as much as they may not want to.

Whereas it’s simply not acceptable to let patently unsuited people stand on services, the situation isn’t always as clear cut as ‘young people nowadays, I don’t know…’. On modern day services everyone just accepts the situation, takes their lot when they can, and put up with it when they don't.
It’s when they become oblivious to clearly needy people, that things fall apart.

As a general rule of thumb, if someone looks like they need a seat more than you, offer it.

James Shields · 21-07-2006, 02:04

There was a time when no gentleman would leave a lady standing. Personally I'm glad that time has passed, not because it would mean I'd never get a seat, but because by treating women as frail and weak, we devalue everyone.

I find it frustrating when I see someone who clearly needs a seat left standing, but I find the "young people of today" attitude equally offensive. I have often found my self in the "is she or isn't she?" dilema, and I'm not sure what you should do in that situation.

To a certain extent, I think that if you wait around expecting someone to offer you a seat, you're at least 50% to blame. Is it fair to expect people to know that you need one? Most commuters aren't actually psychic, I'm afraid. I will happily offer my seat to someone who needs, but I tend to spend much of the journey engrossed in my own activities (I typed 600 words on the train this morning, despite standing for half the journey), so is it my responsibility to notice you?

It hasn't happened to me, but I've heard of people who've offered their seat and been given out for assuming the person wasn't able to stand. Is it any wonder people are reluctant to offer their seat?

If you see someone, and they look like they need a seat, politely offer it.

If someone offers you a seat and you feel you need it, politely accept.

If someone offers you a seat and you don't feel you need it, politely decline.

If you are standing, and you feel you need a seat for any reason, politely ask someone if you may have theirs. I know two people who take this approach, and they have yet to be refused.

I'm still thinking about how best to handle this, but if you are standing, and you see someone who looks like they need to sit, the best thing might be to politely ask them if they need to sit down. Someone ought to get the hint at that point, but if they don't, ask on their behalf.

Graham · 21-07-2006, 21:20

Yep - a good rule of thumb lostcarpark. I have yet to see a person that asks for a seat on behalf of someone else be declined, and it's good that many people aren't afraid to do this - generally for elderly people who don't like causing a fuss but are clearly in discomfort.

It is a very fair point to make though that men shouldn't always have to offer a seat simply on a practical basis - we'd never get to sit down otherwise!
It is especially difficult being a young male though - you always get, if not dirty, then at least blank looks from the odd person, generally non-commuters too. But what can you do? - if I could get a discounted 'male standing ticket' I'd actively consider it!

People are also increasingly good at seat rotation - asking each other where they are getting off and adjusting positions accordingly: a good idea.
Not all is bad. If anything, it seems buses are the real problem in this country - a lot of reports of needy people being left standing on that mode.
People just seem to wrap themselves up in the sheltered cocoon that coach seating enables, and ignore everyone else. Rail is more social, and forces one to be civil - well, most people anyway.

20-07-2006, 12:47	#24
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Anyone fancy the 17:13 Pearse Dundalk tonight, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, its its hay day without air conditioning it was a mobile medical experiment in stamina how long can you stand in 30+ degrees Safety is the key concern at all times it would be fairly trivial to construct a list of no go trains where crowding is such that even if someone did offer you a seat you still have a 8-10 foot wall of people to push through. It is a miracle that no one has been seriously injured yet, statistically we are overdue an accident, IE know that. We have a fairly unique situation in Dublin where heavy crush loading is practice not a rare occurance, the busiest train in the UK takes only 1200 (12 coaches with first class), in Dublin there would be upwards of 10 trains each day that break 1200, the 8:08 Malahide to Dun Laoghaire between Connolly and Tara Street loads to 1400 ish on a bad day. We have to be realistic the rush hour is a no go for anyone who shouldn't be left in a stressful situation or left standing for a long period of time that covers pregnant women through to the elderly. The fact crowding is so bad is something we can beat IE with Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 20-07-2006 at 12:50.

20-07-2006, 13:08	#25
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	I have lived in London (recently) and would have to say that the commuter behaviour on board the London Underground and other systems is light years better than Dublin. It's incrediable the way people over here just push onto the Luas making it almost impossible to get off. I've had incidents where people have refused to let me out of the Luas, just wouldn't move despite a lot of asking, tapping on the shoulders etc. Leaving me with no option except to be very pushy and squeeze my way off. There was still plenty of space up the coach they simply wouldn't get away from the door area. My elderly grandmother was on the redline and swore she'd never use it again. She was trying to get off at Smithfield and ended up stuck on the tram the whole way to Connolly and walking back! She now won't use the trams at all unless they're relatively empty and prefers to use buses if it's busy. And, while that particular incident mentioned above in London was bad. In general I find that Londoners will automatically give up a seat to an elderly person, disabled person or pregnant lady without having to be asked. They also generally don't try and board a train / bus while other people are exiting. Seems that no one has any cop on about use of public transport here anymore. Both Luas and DART vechicles/platform automatic announcements need to be shouting "PLEASE ALLOW PASSENGERS TO LEAVE THE TRAIN BEFORE ATTEMPTING TO BOARD!!!" As for heavily pregnant women using public transport. I was on a tube one afternoon and a lady boarded who was litterally in labour. We (some passengers and a London underground lady) had to pretty much lift her off, link her along to the escalators.. get her up onto street level and call an ambulance. She'd been attempting to get to the hospital by tube and her waters broke en route! Thankfully, there was an ambulance along within about 5 mins. Last edited by MrX : 20-07-2006 at 13:11.

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20-07-2006, 14:07	#28
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	Well the woman sitting next to me got up to let a pregnant woman sit this morning (I was stuck in my PDA and hadn't seen her), but I managed a last moment save for chivilry and said "you sit back down, I'll stand".

20-07-2006, 14:37	#29
Louise Ball New to the board Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 8	I'll put manners on the lot of you yet!!

20-07-2006, 14:50	#30
sandraoh Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Portlaoise Posts: 145	I used to commute from Mullingar to Dublin and I was on crutches at one stage for 2 weeks. People just wouldn't give me a seat. I used to get a bus out to UCD and it was the same on that. I used to have to stand in a crammed train until a seat came free usually around Maynooth. Even when a seat came free it was like a race to get to it before someone else took it. The worst thing was where a woman said to me at connolly that I could have her seat when she got off in Maynooth. Thanks a million! I remember also being on an extremely quiet, almost empty lunchtime train and putting my heavily bandaged leg up on the seat opposite. No shoe, just bandages. A grumpy IE man in an orange jacket came and shouted at me and told me seats were not for feet.

20-07-2006, 22:04	#31
Graham New to the board Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: crawling behind a DART Posts: 25	At the risk of playing devil's advocate here, there is a certain reason for people not giving up seats: most commuters I imagine are simply very tired, especially in the evenings. If they've been vying for a seat all week, and they finally get one after a long day, and maybe only two days in the week, the last thing they want to do is give it up – especially in the context of standing for up to an hour as the potential alternative. I appreciate that is no excuse for allowing somebody to stand who clearly needs a seat more than you do, but it is fair to say that the public in general isn't quite the shower of ignorant b*stards as is often painted - uncharitable perhaps, but not wholly inconsiderate. There is an unstated rule of 'we're all in this together', so whether you're 25 or 55 you take what you're given; everyone is tired, every one is peed off, so just be quiet and get on with it - some of us will stand today, others tomorrow etc. There is also a certain element of waiting for someone else to give up a seat before you have to, though certainly this does not explain how some worthy people are left standing after more than a minute or two – completely unacceptable. Where the problem arises is when this 'commuter culture' of taking what you're given doesn't take into account 'outsiders' - the elderly, pregnant women, people with a physical impairment etc etc - often persons that don't use commuter services normally. Commuters also switch into a self-absorption mode, sitting down and taking out a book to read, or going asleep, or spreading the broadsheet that restricts one's view of other passengers - all blocking out the outside world, which is understandable but it makes them oblivious to others’ needs. So it is often up to other commuters to inform each other of a person that shouldn’t be standing, and similarly sitting people also ought to pay more attention, as much as they may not want to. Whereas it’s simply not acceptable to let patently unsuited people stand on services, the situation isn’t always as clear cut as ‘young people nowadays, I don’t know…’. On modern day services everyone just accepts the situation, takes their lot when they can, and put up with it when they don't. It’s when they become oblivious to clearly needy people, that things fall apart. As a general rule of thumb, if someone looks like they need a seat more than you, offer it.

21-07-2006, 02:04	#32
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	There was a time when no gentleman would leave a lady standing. Personally I'm glad that time has passed, not because it would mean I'd never get a seat, but because by treating women as frail and weak, we devalue everyone. I find it frustrating when I see someone who clearly needs a seat left standing, but I find the "young people of today" attitude equally offensive. I have often found my self in the "is she or isn't she?" dilema, and I'm not sure what you should do in that situation. To a certain extent, I think that if you wait around expecting someone to offer you a seat, you're at least 50% to blame. Is it fair to expect people to know that you need one? Most commuters aren't actually psychic, I'm afraid. I will happily offer my seat to someone who needs, but I tend to spend much of the journey engrossed in my own activities (I typed 600 words on the train this morning, despite standing for half the journey), so is it my responsibility to notice you? It hasn't happened to me, but I've heard of people who've offered their seat and been given out for assuming the person wasn't able to stand. Is it any wonder people are reluctant to offer their seat? If you see someone, and they look like they need a seat, politely offer it. If someone offers you a seat and you feel you need it, politely accept. If someone offers you a seat and you don't feel you need it, politely decline. If you are standing, and you feel you need a seat for any reason, politely ask someone if you may have theirs. I know two people who take this approach, and they have yet to be refused. I'm still thinking about how best to handle this, but if you are standing, and you see someone who looks like they need to sit, the best thing might be to politely ask them if they need to sit down. Someone ought to get the hint at that point, but if they don't, ask on their behalf.

21-07-2006, 21:20	#33
Graham New to the board Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: crawling behind a DART Posts: 25	Yep - a good rule of thumb lostcarpark. I have yet to see a person that asks for a seat on behalf of someone else be declined, and it's good that many people aren't afraid to do this - generally for elderly people who don't like causing a fuss but are clearly in discomfort. It is a very fair point to make though that men shouldn't always have to offer a seat simply on a practical basis - we'd never get to sit down otherwise! It is especially difficult being a young male though - you always get, if not dirty, then at least blank looks from the odd person, generally non-commuters too. But what can you do? - if I could get a discounted 'male standing ticket' I'd actively consider it! People are also increasingly good at seat rotation - asking each other where they are getting off and adjusting positions accordingly: a good idea. Not all is bad. If anything, it seems buses are the real problem in this country - a lot of reports of needy people being left standing on that mode. People just seem to wrap themselves up in the sheltered cocoon that coach seating enables, and ignore everyone else. Rail is more social, and forces one to be civil - well, most people anyway.