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Unread 17-05-2012, 16:49   #1
Mickey H
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Default 29K still on Rosslare and Sligo lines

On my last two visits to Dublin I have seen the 1336 Dublin-Rosslare operated by a 29K

Last Friday (11th) the 0905 Dublin-Sligo was a 29K but the 0810 M3 to Docklands was an ICR

Why? They have plenty of additional 22K now
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Unread 17-05-2012, 17:27   #2
James Howard
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They were using 22Ks on dockland services quite some time ago. In the mornings lately, I have seen 22Ks with Maynooth as a destination. This isn't so bad as an outbound service but I really wouldn't fancy a 22K on an inbound service that stops everywhere on the Maynooth line in the morning. Getting on and off must be quite a challenge.

It would be good to see a the replacement of one of the early morning Longford services with a 22k. If they could figure a way of running the 0615 as an express from Maynooth, 3 cars would be plenty and this would free up 8 29k cars for other use.

The same goes in the evening - this set goes down as the 1817 from Connolly and the few times I have used it (maybe 10 times in 8 years of commuting) there have been no more than 20 people on it after Enfield. Its only value is if you manage to miss the 1805 and if it were removed from the timetable and run later it would also help with leafslip delays in the autumn.

In fact, they could probably run this by using the set that runs the 0905 from Connolly to Sligo. Presumably this is the set that runs the 1700 from Sligo, so they could run it to Longford at 21:05 and have it back in Connolly by 0830 to run the 0905.

Well, one can dream! I would love to be able to have a couple of pints with my workmates the odd evening without having to get the 2045 bus or book a hotel.
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Unread 17-05-2012, 17:46   #3
karlr42
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Yeah, the 22000 allocation on the Connolly side needs to be looked at I think. Since the 2800s left Dublin, 22000s have taken over their duties- the link that used to be allocated to a 6-car 2800 is now a 2x3 22000. I like this personally beause it means I can get the 9:55 Clonsilla to Pearse(9.40 ex Maynooth) and enjoy the extra comfort outside of rush hour But that set would probably be more useful elsewhere- I see it during the day doing to Drogheda at 1330 from Pearse and arriving back around 1905.

The only railcars available now for service around Connolly are the 29000s and 22000s, both being based out of Drogheda, so they are being considered equivalent it seems. I suspect there is actually a shortage now of commuter stock without the 2800s so 22000s are having to be substitued. This will only get worse as the 29000s age and require more maintenance/overhauls. So as Mickey says, sure, there are plenty of 22000s available now, but there are actually too many of them and not enough commuter stock so they are having to operate commuter links and end up unavailable for more suited services.

The use of 22000s on the Dunboyne branch really needs to be stopped too- a 3 car set shuttles to and from Clonsilla for most of the late evening during the week, and it's complete overkill for the demand and travel time involved.

The Sligo line is still seeing 8 car 29000s on Fridays and Sundays, I don't know enough to speculate about the demand there.

Last edited by karlr42 : 17-05-2012 at 17:49.
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Unread 17-05-2012, 18:14   #4
James Howard
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It is a real pity the 0615 from Longford has to do double-duty as a stopping service from Maynooth because by the sounds of it, releasing its 8 cars would solve a lot of other problems.

I suppose all the idiot politicians would jump up and down if the Longford service between 1805 and 1905 was discontinued even if it were to enable a later service but this service really does more harm than good - particularly in the Leafslip season due to causing even worse delays for the 1905 which is a relatively busy train.
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Unread 17-05-2012, 19:19   #5
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The 18.17 should have been cut back to maynooth, running back to pearse in time to run a 21.00hrs service to mullingar should have been done years ago.
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Unread 17-05-2012, 20:42   #6
Inniskeen
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Quote:
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It is a real pity the 0615 from Longford has to do double-duty as a stopping service from Maynooth because by the sounds of it, releasing its 8 cars would solve a lot of other problems.

I suppose all the idiot politicians would jump up and down if the Longford service between 1805 and 1905 was discontinued even if it were to enable a later service but this service really does more harm than good - particularly in the Leafslip season due to causing even worse delays for the 1905 which is a relatively busy train.
Alternatively Irish Rail could use the 22000s to provide a few express commuter services to and from Drogheda/Dundalk/Newry. Such a move would provide a much needed boost for longer distance commuters on the northern line and potentially provide a basis for Irish Rail to claw back some of the business lost to competing road services.

The 22000s are ideally suited to such a service and in addition could also exploit the 90mph limit on the Belfast line to provide attractive journey times. A further advantage of express commuter services on the northern line would be the diversion of a substantial number of passengers away from inner suburban services which although carrying signifigantly fewer passengers are still heavily overcrowded and thus unattractive to commuters with alternatives.
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Unread 18-05-2012, 10:11   #7
DangerM
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Originally Posted by Mickey H View Post
On my last two visits to Dublin I have seen the 1336 Dublin-Rosslare operated by a 29K

Last Friday (11th) the 0905 Dublin-Sligo was a 29K but the 0810 M3 to Docklands was an ICR

Why? They have plenty of additional 22K now
The original post was asking about the Rosslare line specifically but the thread seems to have deviated, any idea when we will have a 22k train on the 16:37 and 17:36 routes?
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Unread 18-05-2012, 18:58   #8
KSW
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The original post was asking about the Rosslare line specifically but the thread seems to have deviated, any idea when we will have a 22k train on the 16:37 and 17:36 routes?
According to what I read in Iarnrod Eireann's Future 2030, Rosslare/Wexford will be all InterCity branded with on line booking etc. services will be increased from 5 to 8/day. The current time of 2hr30mins Wexford to Dublin is reasonable according to Ianrod Eireann but I personally think it can be done 2hr10mins. Interesting read....
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Unread 19-05-2012, 02:31   #9
dowlingm
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I think before worrying about improving the times I'd worry about being able to operate a six car set to Rosslare by fitting selective door opening. It's bizarre that this has still yet to happen.
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Unread 19-05-2012, 09:55   #10
James Howard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KSW View Post
The current time of 2hr30mins Wexford to Dublin is reasonable according to Ianrod Eireann but I personally think it can be done 2hr10mins. Interesting read....
I think I might see the problem with Iarnród Éireann. Anybody who thinks that 2hr 30mins is reasonable for a journey whose distance by road is about 140km has no real business being in charge of a railway. There are always too many excuses. A customer doesn't care about turn radii, crossing points, suburban congestion or indirect routing. They may be reasons but are seen as excuses.
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Unread 19-05-2012, 14:40   #11
dowlingm
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A customer doesn't care about turn radii, crossing points, suburban congestion or indirect routing. They may be reasons but are seen as excuses.
What is IE meant to do about them if government won't give them the money with a direction to fix some of them? This is an organisation beholden to a government which prioritised the reinstatement of a low speed railway from Ennis to Athenry above fixing problems in existing lines of the sort listed above. In fact the government mandated DART to Greystones is arguably part of the reason the line works inefficiently.
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Unread 19-05-2012, 18:30   #12
Inniskeen
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What is IE meant to do about them if government won't give them the money with a direction to fix some of them? This is an organisation beholden to a government which prioritised the reinstatement of a low speed railway from Ennis to Athenry above fixing problems in existing lines of the sort listed above. In fact the government mandated DART to Greystones is arguably part of the reason the line works inefficiently.
Are you seriously saying there is nothing Irish Rail can do to improve services on the Rosslare line without government intervention ?

Why do DARTs take 25% to 40% longer to travel from Bray to Greystones compared to a diesel thus generating much of the congestion between Bray and Greystones.

Why does the DART take between 16% and 25% longer to travel from Bray to Connolly than in 1984 ?

What proposals did Irish Rail table to improve operations on the Rosslare line that were de-prioritised by government ?

Did the government mandate the removal of crossovers at Merrion and Dun Laoghaire ?

Does the government write the timetable ?

Incidentally Irish Rail's slowest speed operation by far is DART not the Western Rail Corridor or even the Nenagh line !
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Unread 20-05-2012, 12:33   #13
dowlingm
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Inniskeen, I'm not privy to the workings of IE, bizarre as they seem to the outsider. However, I can only presume that the crossover removal was deemed to be some form of cost cutting. I also don't know why the DART runs more slowly to Greystones now than diesels did (although the benchmark year is surely 1995 rather than 1984) but I do observe that without an answer it's about as useful a discussion as reminiscing about how the Nenagh branch used to be good for 70mph which usually brings on a queasy feeling about the risk profile IE used to run pre-RSC. If I were to speculate perhaps a more conservative approach to Bray Head is being taken given the hazards from above and below or that it relates to ATP somehow.

As a company which runs at an annual loss in the hundreds of millions, it has no cash of its own to fund capital improvements so yes, if we want improvements to curve radii or grade separation of Merrion Gates or the many other deficiencies of the east coast line then government has to fund them.
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Unread 20-05-2012, 20:31   #14
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Quote:
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Inniskeen, I'm not privy to the workings of IE, bizarre as they seem to the outsider. However, I can only presume that the crossover removal was deemed to be some form of cost cutting. I also don't know why the DART runs more slowly to Greystones now than diesels did (although the benchmark year is surely 1995 rather than 1984) but I do observe that without an answer it's about as useful a discussion as reminiscing about how the Nenagh branch used to be good for 70mph which usually brings on a queasy feeling about the risk profile IE used to run pre-RSC. If I were to speculate perhaps a more conservative approach to Bray Head is being taken given the hazards from above and below or that it relates to ATP somehow.

As a company which runs at an annual loss in the hundreds of millions, it has no cash of its own to fund capital improvements so yes, if we want improvements to curve radii or grade separation of Merrion Gates or the many other deficiencies of the east coast line then government has to fund them.
Diesels are currently faster than DARTs between Bray and Greystones.

DART started in 1984 with running times remaining unchanged for a decade
or more. Not sure why 1995 would be the reference year ?

I am not aware of Irish Rail having any particular ambitions for the Rosslare line - if they have proposals for operational improvements they haven't entered the public domain.

As with so many aspects of railway operations, improvements do not necessarily require additional capital expenditures. Remember that huge sums have already been spent on rolling stock, track, signalling, bridges, level crossings and fencing. Is the investment that has taken place already being used to best effect ?
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Unread 20-05-2012, 21:33   #15
Mark Gleeson
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Journey time between Greystones and Bray is now LESS than it was in the 1990's, it was 12-15 minutes its now 9 minutes which given the hilly and curvy nature of the section is a very decent time.

1995 is the reference year as it marked the start of massive expansion of services to Maynooth and Northern Line which massively impacted on DART quality of service.

DART carries 40% of all passengers and IS entitled to a reasonable level of priority.
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Unread 21-05-2012, 12:54   #16
Inniskeen
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The questions remain !

Why do DARTs take 25% to 40% longer to travel from Bray to Greystones compared to a diesel thus generating much of the congestion between Bray and Greystones.

Why does the DART take between 16% and 25% longer to travel from Bray to Connolly than in 1984 ?

DART may well account for 40% of Irish Rail's passenger numbers, but the average passenger journey is fairly short at around 9km and of course revenue per passenger is correspondingly modest.

In order to get best use of limited track capacity it would seem a no brainer that peak period DARTs should always be made up to 8 carriages (carrying at least 60% of design capacity) and that where such demand doesn't exist frequency should be adjusted accordingly to give precedence to higher revenue longer distance traffic.
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Unread 21-05-2012, 14:50   #17
dowlingm
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Why are you obsessed with 1984? The DART didn't exist on that section at that time so why is it being blamed for not adhering to the then schedule? I will correct myself though - opening day for Greystones DART was 2000 not 1995. I checked hastily and 1995 was when Lowry gave the go-ahead but it didn't finish until 2000.
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Unread 21-05-2012, 16:42   #18
Inniskeen
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Why are you obsessed with 1984? The DART didn't exist on that section at that time so why is it being blamed for not adhering to the then schedule? I will correct myself though - opening day for Greystones DART was 2000 not 1995. I checked hastily and 1995 was when Lowry gave the go-ahead but it didn't finish until 2000.
Why does the DART take between 16% and 25% longer to travel from Bray to Connolly than in 1984 ?

DART opened in 1984 from Bray to Howth, hence 1984. Could have used 1985, 1986, 1987, perhaps even 1995 (need to check 1995 TT to confirm). Point is that the journey times have gotten significantly slower adding to congestion and track occupancy, reducing crew and equipment productivity and making the service less attractive than it needs to be.

Greystones is a comparison between current DART and diesel running times !
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Unread 21-05-2012, 17:13   #19
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As far as I can tell , Bray-Greystones takes 9 mins regardless of the operating equipment.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/DARTCo...e25.09.111.pdf
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Unread 21-05-2012, 17:21   #20
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On my last two visits to Dublin I have seen the 1336 Dublin-Rosslare operated by a 29K

Last Friday (11th) the 0905 Dublin-Sligo was a 29K but the 0810 M3 to Docklands was an ICR

Why? They have plenty of additional 22K now
I've no idea, I had the misfortune to get a 29K several weeks back on the 1801 up service, to add insult we had no internal lighting (even in the toilets) until Greystones. I thought it was a once off, but any time I've seen the 1336 down service or the 1801 up since, it seems to have been a 29K.
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