Budget 2008 transport Spending

[ThomasJ]

So what did you think of the transport aspect of Budget 2008. No major suprises . Rail and luas elements are highlighted.

From WWW.RTE.IE Budget coverage

http://www.rte.ie/news/features/budg...chapter04.html

Transport
I am allocating €2.7 billion for investment in rail and bus services, national and secondary roads, regional airports and ports.

Of this, nearly €1.7 billion will be invested in our national roads network, thus continuing this Government's unprecedented levels of investment in this key piece of infrastructure. We are building high class roads, which are absolutely integral to economic activity and long-term economic and social prosperity.

During the coming year, this massive investment will deliver significantly on the M50 upgrade as targeted, resulting in four-lanes between the N4 and Ballymount and a transformed and fully functional Red Cow junction. The West-Link Bridge will also have four lanes by the end of next year and we will have barrier-free tolling too.

Elsewhere around the country, 29km of dual carriageway will open between Kilbeggan and Athlone, 37km of dual carriageway will open between Cashel and Mitchelstown, and 19km of dual carriageway will open to bypass Carlow Town. All these are key components of the major interurban routes between Dublin and our main regional cities and the National Roads Authority is working to ensure that they are delivered on time and on budget.

Through a combination of Exchequer and Local Government funding over €600 million will also be provided for regional and local roads. This will continue the commitment which the Government has shown over the last decade to the renewal of this vital network.

I am also investing almost €1 billion in our public transport system. This significant level of investment means that right across the country we will continue to make real improvements. Key projects such as the Cork to Midleton commuter rail line and phase one of the Western Rail Corridor, which will link Ennis to Athenry, are through planning and the year ahead will see them readied for service in 2009. Construction is also due to begin on phase 1 of the Navan rail line, linking Dublin to Dunboyne. Irish Rail will also continue to introduce its fleet of 183 railcars into service across the intercity network.

In Dublin too we will build on the great success of the Luas by adding much needed additional capacity on existing lines. By the summer, the capacity on the Tallaght line will be up 40 per cent and construction work will also continue on the line extensions to the Docklands and Cherrywood in South Dublin.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Ok.

1. The capacity on Tallaght line Luas is paid for already (40m trams)

2. Ditto the intercity railcars.

3. The West-Link Bridge will also have four lanes by the end of next year...........

Well, thats all from me tonight - Goodnight!!!!

[KSW]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

Rail and luas elements are highlighted

The rail and luas plans are not highlighted ENOUGH. The Minister could have easily said that the new 22000 trains will start service on the Sligo Line in January followed by the Rosslare Line which is next with futher introductions later on in 2008. Since this is a rail organisation I'm not going to talk about the Roads etc...What about the City Metro and so on? The completion of the Rosslare Resignalling and its next stage, Stuff like this or is this not the relevant Minister. Does this Minister only give quick elements on Rail regards money

[Mark Hennessy]

If 1BN is going to public transport, what is IE's chunk and what does the RPA get?

How much does IE need a year (up to 2015) to complete the T21 pipedream?

[Colm R]

Originally Posted by ThomasJ

Key projects such as the Cork to Midleton commuter rail line

Does this count as another Re-Annoucement?


I'm sick of hearing about the Middleton Railway line. It has actually got the stage where I cringe when I think of the day in 2025 when the politicians of East Cork will be patting each other on the back upon the opening and a smiling FF Taoiseach talking about how he delivers for Cork!!!

And yes, the same argument applies to Navan, Limerick-Nenagh, Galway and everywhere else.


I got myself out of the scratcher today to have a listen to it (I'm doing nights at the moment) and had to agree with Richard Bruton regarding his statement on VRT. Basically what his getting across is this government delivers projects and policy in hindsight - there is no vision. The Celtic Tiger for how many years now, and we don't have anything to show for it. They just throw money at things. We here are a Rail lobby, however the same can be said for other vital parts of our infrastructure - health anyone - anyone home.

So I've been pondering since the Budget, well to be honest a lot longer, but why is it that we are so far behind other countries in our infrastructure. Why do we not have high speed rail intercity. Why in the year 2007 do we still not have a motorway connecting any major cities. Why, why, why!!!

The answer my friends is the Civil War!!!

Ok, I'll give ye a minute to stop laughing - but hear me out!!!


I was having a chat with the girlfriends father recently, who happens to be die hard Fianna Fail!! My family background is Blue Shirt. Anyway he asked me would I ever vote for Fianna Fail. I said I had in the past. It was 2002, and I personally didn't think Fine Gael or other parties would deliver anything worth while.

He was shocked: he couldn't understand why I would turn my colours. He said he doesn't like Fine Gael, but nobody should turn the back on their alliegences. He was actually a bit disappointed in me, as if I had turned my back on my country!!! (By the way, we had a whole other debate on Roy Keane )

Anyway, this is what we are fighting people, and it applies to both of our major parties. If I was a TD for FF or FG, I would just go to the houses and ask the people to turn out on the day where I know they will vote for me. I would leave the rest alone. Whats the point, they won't vote for me.

I had another conversation with a lady from out West last May who said their was local concillor who has been very good for the area, getting lots done and his going in the general election. So I asked her would she vote for him. "No, his a Blue shirt".

So this is why, its complacent, governments in this coutry don't need to deliver. There is a core FF and FG (albeit smaller) and this is the way it works.

Look, across the water - 10 years of labour precedded by about 15 years of Tory rule. And watch it, its coming around, I bet the Torys are back in. Why, not because the British have suddenly grown up and become conservative. Its because Labour are getting a little complacent (nothing compared to FF).


So I know the above is off topic, but where does that leave us here on RUI. Token gestures. Thats all. Two rail projects which really need to get done and have been talked about for years are Navan and Middleton. I wouldn't be surprised if only 1 opened before the next General Election, if that at all. But it makes you wonder, if they are that complacent with these projects, where will stand in 2012 with the Interconnector, the Metro etc.

Rant over!!! My apologies

[Colm Donoghue]

1) there's 2.7 billion lets call them euros for all the good it will do.
2) "Of this, nearly €1.7 billion will be invested in our national roads network" ses the man from Offally
3) "over €600 million will also be provided for regional and local roads." he ses later. pay attention now, ther'll be a quiz later
4) "I am also investing almost €1 billion in our public transport system" he concludes.
This man is starting to stick on the pieces of teflon the cutest hoor of all has shed

5) just to annoy Thomas, the west link toll will almost double in August, from EUR1.57 ex VAT to EUR3 ex VAT.

Mockery

[Derek Wheeler]

I have to admit lads, I was bricking it this afternoon. Afterall Ive stuck my neck out both here and on the national airwaves in terms of doubt on Navan and the Interconnector. A lot of Rail projects in T21 are slipping. Todays budget fuels that slippage.

I had the banjo on my knee for some practise. Its now back in the attic.

It was a positive budget in many ways and in transport terms, those roads will be built! But as Ive been predicting, there is no definitive committment to rail. Can next years budget be any better? I doubt it.

I now think that Metro North may just be slipping into the same "holding area". I really hope Im wrong. I don't want to be right. But it does need to be said on record. I cannot see where the money is going to come from to sustain all these plans.

That is all from the "Eamonn Dunphy of rail transport".

[Mark Hennessy]

Listening to all the commentators on radio 1 last night and this morning, there was not one mention of rail when everyone was talking about infrastructure investment (Roads, roads, roads, airports etc)

Given one more tough year economically and we'll see high high priority rail is

[ACustomer]

Re message 6: you quote a total of €2.7 billion and then mention 3 components (i) National Roads €1.7 billion; (ii) regional roands €600m and (iii) public transport €1 billion. That adds up to €3.3 billion. ???

[ofjames]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

Re message 6: you quote a total of €2.7 billion and then mention 3 components (i) National Roads €1.7 billion; (ii) regional roands €600m and (iii) public transport €1 billion. That adds up to €3.3 billion. ???

i would think the 1.7 billion is the total expenditure on roads, with 600mln of that amount devoted to regional roads. Adding in the billion to be spent on public transport, you would then have the 2.7billion reconciled

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by Mark Hennessy

Listening to all the commentators on radio 1 last night and this morning, there was not one mention of rail when everyone was talking about infrastructure investment (Roads, roads, roads, airports etc)

Given one more tough year economically and we'll see high high priority rail is

I have to agree with you Mark, all we have heard about is delays with Transport 21 projects this year. No real progress.

I think Derek, you can pt your banjo away, won't be needed!!

Also DOT has been defending themselves over their roads over public transport policy.

From breakingnews.ie

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhmhsneyojkf/

Dempsey defends bias in favour of road projects
06/12/2007 - 11:48:33


Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey has defended the Government’s continued bias in favour of roads rather than public transport

Funding of more than €2bn was announced for roads in yesterday’s budget, compared to just €1.3bn for public transport projects.

Mr Dempsey says the bias is deliberate and will continue over the coming years, but the situation will be reversed "in the latter part of Transport 21".

Opposition parties say the move flies in the face of the Government’s alleged support for ‘green’ policies and is promoting car usage over public transport.

[Colm Donoghue]

I'm just quoting what the minister for finance said. he's getting a substantial rise and he cant or is unwilling to add....
I'm just pointing out the lies being spouted about how public transport is going to get better / transport 21 yada yada.
If someone is going to prove themselves a liar now, why would you believe anything they say later?

[Peter FitzPatrick]

In case the minister hasn't noticed, the westlink is already 4 lanes in each direction, its the removal of the toll building & replacement with an overhead gantry scanner thats at issue. He's also contradicting the NRA, who target completion for August 2008.

Some solace in the government finally seeing fit to borrow for T21; 5,6 & 8 billion through to 2009. Its clearer than ever that Government priority is roads with lip service to rail, despite comment, all roads are on or ahead of schedule.

[robdrysdale]

Originally Posted by Peter FitzPatrick

In case the minister hasn't noticed, the westlink is already 4 lanes in each direction, its the removal of the toll building & replacement with an overhead gantry scanner thats at issue. He's also contradicting the NRA, who target completion for August 2008.

Some solace in the government finally seeing fit to borrow for T21; 5,6 & 8 billion through to 2009. Its clearer than ever that Government priority is roads with lip service to rail, despite comment, all roads are on or ahead of schedule.

I know this is a Rail Users site. However, given the high cost and inflexible workforce that IR have to work with, it's hardly surprising that priority is being given to roads. Roads may be slower but they are currently the only economic way of moving freight around the country, as proved by IR's closing of this division (a stance supported by this User Group). From a passenger perspective they are fully open to bus route competition (ignoring Bus Eireann's predatory pricing and practices that needs to be outlawed); Citylink seem to be doing very well.

I agree with National Rail projects being secondary to National Road projects. However, where priority is needed is in Cork & Greater Dublin Area Rail & Luas projects. The Western Rail Corridor was pondered to instead.

[Mark Gleeson]

We don't have a position on freight, though we do point out that Irish Rail recieves a subsidy for passenger services only, in the days before separate accounts it wasn't clear if the freight division was taking a cut of this or not.

In the case of secondary routes having freight actually makes it cheaper to run passenger services since it splits the high fixed costs. Ireland is fairly unique in Europe in not offering any grants or other supports for rail freight, any capital investment in freight is likely to improve passengers journeys as well by either providing increased capacity or new freight waggons capable of travelling at higher speeds keeping them out of the way of passenger services

Most of the freight lost from the network was as a result of the companies involved closing down, IFI, Bell Lines, Silvermines, Asahi etc. Guinness got a cheaper deal elsewhere. No exising block customer has been told to get lost

The number one cause of delay in rail projects currently is the refusal of the DoT to sign off on projects at the post planning approval stage (Midleton, Kildare etc) and the failure to provide certainty in the funding going forward note the Pace/M3 electrifcation issue

It is clear that there is still a heavy bias in favour of the roads, despite the undeniable evidence that Ireland has the fastest growing passenger railway in Europe recording a 12% increase last year alone or 380% since the year before the DART opened

[ACustomer]

To-days Irish Times has a piece by Tim O'Brien headed "Rail Services get Budget Boost". The article is all about the new Dec07/08 timetable, which has nothing to do with this week's Budget. (He mentions a new 2009 Timetable at the beginning, but all specific service improvements referred to are in 2007-08).

As if that were not bad enough, he gives the impression that the new Sligo timetable comes into operation at the same time as other changes: no mention of the Jan 08 date.

This man epitomises all that is wrong with Irish journalism: lazy, sloppy, just accept the corporate handout, and so on....

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

This man epitomises all that is wrong with Irish journalism: lazy, sloppy, just accept the corporate handout, and so on....

I'll try to change that, I promise.

http://www.informer.ie

[Derek Wheeler]

Originally Posted by robdrysdale

I agree with National Rail projects being secondary to National Road projects. However, where priority is needed is in Cork & Greater Dublin Area Rail & Luas projects. The Western Rail Corridor was pondered to instead.

Great point Rob. Roads will always have to be top of the list. What the Government are feeding us is that once the inter urban road programme is finished then they will let loose on the purse strings for metro, luas, navan, interconnector et al. Thats a good plan when your economy is growing at double digit rates or "high" single figures, but not so good when growth is diminishing and figures are being revised downwards. Alternatively you could subscribe to the suggestion that once economic growth becomes stagnant then our Government will unleash huge infrastructural projects, such as those mentioned above, in order to stimulate growth. Unfortunetly there aren't enough projects for that to make a difference. Building vast road networks during bad times is good, but building a few rail projects during bad times is not so good.

We need roads and we need rail. But despite T21 I am not convinced that the Government are committed to rail transport/public transport expenditure at a meaningful level. The delay in a transport authority for Dublin should sound loud alarm bells for everyone. Its been discussed and recommended by various reports since 1980!!!!!

THEY DON'T CARE.