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31-01-2013, 17:22
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#1 |
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New to the board
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5
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Recomend a good solicitor
Can anyone recomend a good solicitor to fight an unjust evasion charge
preferably someone who has delt with irish rail before I hope it is no breaking any rules to ask for this |
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31-01-2013, 20:08
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#2 |
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Really Really Regluar Poster
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,146
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Why was the fine unjust?
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31-01-2013, 20:27
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#3 |
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Technical Officer
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
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For legal reasons we can't really give any recommendations or allow recommendations for this kind of thing
We are very happy to discuss in public or private your issue and review the situation. We have a very deep knowledge of the rules and procedures.
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31-01-2013, 20:44
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#4 |
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IT Officer
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Greenwich, London
Posts: 1,860
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If you'd like to specify the journey you were making, the ticket (if any) you had, and the stage of matters things have reached, we might be able to help.
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02-02-2013, 09:46
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#5 |
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New to the board
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5
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Well in my honest opinion it was absolutly unjust
I went to a station 2 weeks ago for my journey to work when i got there it was unmanned security shutters down I tried to get a ticket from the vending machine but it just kept spitting the money back out nothing came up on the screen it just would not take the note I went back inside to see if there was anyone about the barriers were open and the machine display said no ticket required I got on the dart thinking i could pay at pearse like i have done before When i got off at pearse i immediatly went to the guy at the barrier and explained that the booking office in the station was closed and that the machine rejected my money which i showed him. And I asked for a ticket he said was was not allowed to sell me a ticket and said i would have to go over to a little office on the far side of the tracks which i did I rang the bell and waited till the guy arrived and I explained again that the station was closed and i needed a ticket you cant imagine how shocked I was when he said he was giving me a penalty fare for not having a ticket i said i would not accept his penalty ticket as it was irish rails fault I had no ticket as i could not buy one despite trying in the station ,at the machine and in pearse There was no changing this guys mind i did not have a ticket and that was that i was a fare evader I took great exception to being accused of trying to evade the fare after it was me who went to them to buy a ticket I asked for the gardai to be called as i was not going to give him my name i would only give it to the gardai as i has done nothing wrong ( in my opinion) A guard arrived and she tried to tell me to just accept the fine and then appeal it I declined her offer to accept the fine and she demanded my name and address which i gave her and she said i was free to go She then gave my details to the irish rail worker Even after all this i still went downstairs and bought the ticket as i needed it for work i get reimbursed for all traved expenses but i have to give in the ticket as a recipt I wrote a strongly worded letter of complaint to customer services and registered delivery to customer services irish rail on 16th on 22nd i got a fine in the post demanding 150 dated the 18th 100 for evasion and 50 for not giving my details this letter said i while carring out their dutys revenue protection officers found me to be without a ticket  ( I went to them )it said i had 21 days to appeal on the 24th i appealed to the revenue protection addressed on the fine by registered post just so i could say that i tried everything The real sting in the tail came also on 24th i received a letter rejicting my appeal dated the 22nd thats 2 days before i sent the appeal So now im in the unhappy position of looking for a solicitor to defend me should this go to court I cannot express how utterly disgusted I am with the treatment i have recieved at the hands of irish rail and this shoddy attempt at a shake down the accusation of being a fare evader and the attempted extortion of 150 with threats of court action if i dont just pay up all backed up by an phantom appeals process which has already rejected your appeal before you even make it Sorry about the long post folks but i really need to get this out of my system Last edited by scooby : 02-02-2013 at 09:57. |
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02-02-2013, 15:41
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#6 | ||||||||
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Local Liaison Officer
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,442
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You don't mention which station.
Strictly speaking, you should have a ticket. However, in the circumstances, it would appear that it was impossible and the sign on the ticket gate suggested you could travel without one. Did you happen to take any pictures? Ask for the CCTV of the day to be retained as well as the logs for the ticket vending machine and the ticket barriers. Quote:
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Are you saying you tried coins and notes (note that 50 notes will never be accepted for short journeys)? Quote:
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Realise that going to court risks a criminal conviction. Buy a Leap Card. You can use the on-line log to claim your expenses from work, it they'll accept it.
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02-02-2013, 16:15
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#7 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ar an traein
Posts: 600
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(Not advice but a relevant point to prevent needless problems through no fault of passengers)
There is surely an internal system for logging such instances e.g. TVM faults/ a member of staff rings in sick and the ticket office isn't opened at the usual time (am sure there's a history/log of each TVM and any faults kept). However problems with ticket vending machines and ticket offices ought to be publically displayed on the website (possibly as part of the NTA contractual requirement). Have never seen any such info ever posted on the Irish Rail website - have seen info on lifts out of action and the like. A glance at a website in Britain shows the sort of thing: http://www.journeycheck.com/northernrail Hartlepool Facilities: Ticket Vending Machine problem At Hartlepool station. The ticket vending machines are out of order. Message Received :01/02/2013 08:29 |
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02-02-2013, 17:21
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Clonsilla
Posts: 340
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The "no ticket required" thing is not a sign, it's a message displayed on the little screen on the barrier. A member of staff can set it to that mode(which also keeps the gates open) while a station is unstaffed, or you sometimes see the gates open and "Touch On/Off" displayed. I wouldn't take it as endorsement of not having a ticket, it's just a programmed message with unfortunate wording.
What probably happened was that the machine had no change was not accepting cash payment, I've seen that happen before. You could still have paid with a credit/debit card though. |
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03-02-2013, 05:01
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#9 |
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Really Regular Poster
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 258
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Your story, assuming we know all the facts, is shocking, Scooby.
You tried to pay as soon as you could, and were fined when you tried. I would have thought this was reasonable. In the UK, posters would be on display in most stations saying that you must buy a ticket before travelling, or where this is not possible, at the first available opportunity, ie a member of staff on board a train, or at your destination etc. I've looked at the conditions of travel on the Irish rail website, available here: http://www.irishrail.ie/media/ConditionsOfTravel1.pdf It was last updated in June 2004. The only thing I can find says: Conditions of Carriage of Passengers: Conditions of Issue of Passenger Tickets 4.4 Where any person travels without a valid ticket, he or she will be required to pay the full ordinary single fare for the journey made and he or she may be liable to prosecution. No reference whatsoever about their being available facilities to buy a ticket before you travel. Just, you must have one. So the message is, if you can't buy one, don't travel, because if you do, Irish Rail can prosecute you. Given this, I'm not sure a solicitor can do much. And I'm sure their fee would quickly clock over the level of the fine. So I think, on balance, much as I think you have done what is fair and reasonable, and what I would have done in the same circumstances because my knowledge would have been based on experience in the UK (before I'd read the conditions of travel above) I'd pay the fine. And never, ever travel Irish Rail again without a ticket. Clearly, if you have no other available forms of transport available to you, this is a problem. In my opinion, it's a pretty bad indictment of Irish Rail though, to fine a passenger that has tried to pay at the first available opportunity. And not to have updated its Conditions of Travel in nearly 9 years. I hope someone else will be able to say that I'm wrong and you do have a case. Last edited by Eddie : 03-02-2013 at 05:15. |
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03-02-2013, 10:08
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#10 | |
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New to the board
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5
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Quote:
No he did not say it was an offence not to give your name I cant use a leap card our accounts dept will only accept the actual ticket as a receipt I did keep the ticket i bought after the incident What i did not say in my earlier epic post was that the issue was indeed that it was a 50 note i did not know at that time it would not accept this as i never use the vending machines i usually pay at the hatch I genuinely did not see any notice like the one in other stations that was pointed out to me by a friend after this happened I went and had another look and there was a sticker up on the top of the machine not beside the display like others this notice was partially obscured by another sticker and nothing came up on the display of the machine i tried several times to put it through I had no other cash or cards that i could use My problem with this whole mess is that i made genuine efforts to buy a ticket which were refused At no time did i try to evade paying I could have just walked out behind someone else but i did not I actually required a ticket and i tried to buy one I needed a ticket to get to and from work and i need the actual physical ticket in order to be reimbursed I just will not accept that someone can call me a criminal & demand money from me and that i should just accept it and reward them for this shut up and pay up attitude The guy in the little office in pearse was not even remotely interested in listening to my side of the story he was writing the ticket before i had finished speaking he did not try to contact glenageary to see if there was anyone there The guard that arrived said that was her third time there that morning for the same thing If i was the third person that felt strongly enough to ask for the gardai to be called then how many people just accepted irish rails accusations and walked away the law society journal done an article on this called ticket to ride http://www.google.ie/#hl=en&tbo=d&sc...w=1280&bih=696 And clearly ( again in my opinion) indicates that it is not an offence to board a train without a ticket if the station is unmanned or you are unable to use the vending machine as long as you try to buy one as soon as you can on reaching your destination it is only an offence if you intend not to pay Again i apologise for the long post |
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03-02-2013, 15:28
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#11 | |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 278
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Quote:
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03-02-2013, 16:10
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#12 |
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Technical Officer
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
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Now that we have some facts we can move on
1. Purchase of a ticket at Glenageary There is no evidence to support a claim the ticket machine was in any way defective. It refused a 50 euro note, per design and per long standing rules on change. The ticket machine does have a clear notice indicating 50 euro notes valid only if fare greater than 31 euro, so for reference attached photos of the ticket machine in Glenageary So nothing wrong here and we can be sure Irish Rail can produce evidence of numerous ticket sales from the ticket machine in question before and after the OP's visit. Irish Rail is only obliged to accept exact payment, change is entirely optional 2. Pearse As the ticket machine in Glenageary was in working order it was not flagged with staff, there is an internal notification process in Irish Rail will provides a list of all ticket machines, turnstiles and smartcard readers that are not in full working order. So the member of staff was correct and legally empowered to begin the fixed penalty notice procedure Refusal to give your name and address is an offence per Section 135(2)c of the Rail Safety Act 2005 and separately Section 35 of SI 109/1984 Coras Iompair Ιireann Bye-Laws (Confirmation) Order. Failure to cooperate with the official and the calling of the Gardai is a huge issue if this goes to court as any judge will take this as a case of wasting Garda time Being brutally frank about the situation, we can split hairs about many elements of this, but this is the real world and not Hollywood courtroom Ask the OP, did you have a ticket when boarding the train, yes/no Ask the IE official, was there a working ticket machine or open booking office at the station the OP started from, yes/no Its pretty open and shut at this point. That said you have a good chance of winning if you have evidence to support 1. There was no notice concerning the 50 euro note restriction (Photos I have show the notice is there) 2. Photo of the turnstile saying no ticket required (Software change in early Jan 2013 got rid of this notice, we asked for the change 1+ year ago) 3. Not being informed of the legal obligations to give name etc (dubious at best, its a citizens responsibility to know the rules, ignorance is no defence)
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03-02-2013, 18:28
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#13 |
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IT Officer
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Greenwich, London
Posts: 1,860
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Unfortunately I agree with Mark on most of this. I say unfortunately because the rules aren't especially fair on people in this scenario, if you genuinely had only a 50 note. Thing is, most people carry a credit or debit card as well, and machines will accept these for any transaction.
However, I think the only offence you have committed which is eligible for a fixed penalty notice is of failing to give your name and address. The offence of avoiding a fare (s 132 (3) (a) Railway Safety Act 2005, if memory serves) requires intent to avoid payment, which I doubt can be proven. Also, the statutory instrument does not allow them to issue a 50 fine for this. I don't think you are likely to get off on the technicalities, but it would be an interesting argument. Last edited by Thomas Ralph : 03-02-2013 at 18:32. |
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04-02-2013, 08:06
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#14 |
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Really Regular Poster
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 951
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Just a few comments.
While I sympathise with your situation and believe you have been poorly treated, you need to ask yourself would you you have travelled abroad in similar circumstances - say in London, New York, Vienna, Berlin ? If the answer is no then maybe you shouldn't have travelled in Dublin either. Looking at the Irish Rail performance, the ticket & ticket checking systems are a mess due to inconsistency of application and unreliability of equipment. As regards the 50 euro restriction, this may well be an inconvenience but provided it is clearly indicated at the station then unfortunately it is the passenger who must organise themselves accordingly. As for the booking office being unstaffed, this is comparatively routine. The Irish Rail pactice of leaving barriers and gates open in such circumstances is questionable as it sends the message that they are not particularly pushed whether passengerrs have a ticket or not. Many, many passengers travel free as they get to know the system. The new barriers happily facilitate tailgating, something I have been forced to do on numerous occasions due to the entry/exit equipment not acknowledging a perfectly valid annual ticket. I happened to be in Dalkey yesterday (I think the ticket office was open) While waiting for a Dublin bound DART I observed several youths simply pulling the turnstiles slightly forward and then squeezing through the mid-position without any difficulty. The group involved had no difficulty exiting at Sydney Parade as the barriers were were open and possibly displaying the "No ticket required message". While I am loathe to advise given that I don't have the legal knowledge to properly assess your case, morally you seem to have a decent case, but the onus may still be yours to have a valid ticket before boarding a train, irrespective of circumstances. Good Luck ! |
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04-02-2013, 09:43
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#15 |
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New to the board
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5
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Many thanks for yor replies
attached is the photo of vending machine in question having trouble resizing it to fit |
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04-02-2013, 09:55
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#16 |
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Technical Officer
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
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If you can prove that photo was taken on the day of the incident or in the days following you are in the clear as its does NOT indicate 50 euro note restrictions and as Thomas has said they have to prove intent to defraud which is not easy.
However this is what the machine looks like Sunday Feb 3 and the notice is clearly shown http://www.railusers.ie/forum/attach...8&d=1359904690 So you got to prove the date and time of the photo, if you have to original file it should be timestamped and stored along with the camera type internally. If the photo was taken this morning it proves nothing
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04-02-2013, 16:51
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#17 | |
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New to the board
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5
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Quote:
Does not matter now not getting much support from anyone so after another letter from irish rail giving me another 14 days after yet another fictious consideration of the circumstanses you remember the first time they rejected my appeal 6 days before i had made it I decided i have had enough I called the phone number on the letter 5 times today to pay the fine by post but no one answered i had to go in to pearse street and pay I realise that if i cant convince ordinary people of my innocence of the unjust charge what chance would i have with a judge Thank you all for your input case closed |
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04-02-2013, 18:21
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#18 |
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Really Really Regluar Poster
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sligo Line
Posts: 1,115
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Personally, I think this is unfair that when somebody makes a genuine effort to pay at the barrier that they get stung for a penalty fare. Yes, you aren't supposed to get on a train without a ticket, but the general impression most people have is that it is OK to travel without a ticket and sort it out at the other end. The people on this site know that this is no longer the case but the occasional train user is quite likely to have a very different impression.
It is fair enough that Irish Rail have changed their policy on this level of enforcement, but I don't think it is made sufficiently obvious that travelling without a ticket in no longer acceptable except in situations where the ticket machines are all out of order. The fact is that people in this country are very much used to seeing all sort of official signs with inconsistent messages and that bear very little relation to reality. That is the way the place is run, so a little sign on the ticket machine is simply not going to cut it. The sign needs to be very obvious, huge and state something along the lines of "DO NOT GET ON A TRAIN WITHOUT A TICKET - YOU WILL BE FINED". Probably, it needs to be in Irish as well - and hanging over the ticket barriers where you can't miss it. From the photo earlier in the thread, I assume that the notice is the panel stuck over the the Irish version of the "Ticket Sales" logo. There is so much junk stuck onto the machine between leap card ads, a student ticket ad and something for a shop that a little sticker with a "i" logo in the same colour and general shape as a Facebook icon would be easily ignored in peripheral vision as just more junk. |
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04-02-2013, 23:29
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#19 |
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Really Regular Poster
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 258
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Completely agree with you James.
On a related point, I was going through Shankill station about 6.40pm last Friday, and the station was unmanned, and the gates left open, with the "No ticket required" sign or something similar. As it was windy, I stayed around the ticket office area and noticed the ticket office opening hours sign and it said that it was manned something like 5.15am unil 00.15am. I go through this station on a semi-regular basis at roughly peak hours, and I'd say its unmanned at least 30% of the time and it could be up to 50% or more during the afternoon / evening peak hours. I can't imagine it's better outside peak hours. You could come to a number of conclusions as to why it's unmanned such a large proportion of the time: - perhaps the sign is out-of-date - perhaps there is a job vacancy - perhaps there is staff sickness and no one to fill in - perhaps there is someone due to be on duty but they just don't turn up because there's no monitoring system and they know they won't get caught I don't think this is a one-off, affecting this station only. We've all been through unmanned stations, though I rarely check to see if the booth was supposed to be open, according to the adjacent sign. It would be interesting to know if Glenageary station which Scooby went through was due to be manned at the time. If it was, and as his intention was to buy a ticket, presumably he would have been able to pay with a 50 note, and avoid the fine. Just for interest, what level of staff monitoring is there at stations, particularly at stations where there is only one member of staff due to be on duty? Last edited by Eddie : 05-02-2013 at 07:01. |
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05-02-2013, 16:42
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#20 | |
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Really Regular Poster
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Celbridge
Posts: 259
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Quote:
Last edited by grainne whale : 05-02-2013 at 16:44. |
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