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Unread 08-04-2016, 13:14   #181
Jamie2k9
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Having a position or not is pointless as it hold's little weight (no disrespect), the schedules are confined and largely agreed before they are published to the public.

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Thanks.

I suspect later departures than 23:30 would require contract changes with the NTA. It's no different to DB and BE PSO services either.
If the NTA provided the diesel they still wouldn't operate a lather service. There is scope to run a 00.30 or even 01.00 on Fridays/Saturdays at the very least.
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Unread 08-04-2016, 14:10   #182
James Howard
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So how do Irish Rail or the NTA do market research? This is normally the first step in trying to provide a better service to a customer. If there is no way of getting the customer's opinion on whether a service is useful, then you run a very strong chance of getting things wrong.

Take for example, the delay of the 0800 Greystones departure - the single busiest train on the network. A 4 minute change might seem inconsequential but for many people, it is not feasible to regularly turn up at the office at 4 minutes past 9 for a 9 o'clock start. How does an organisation with any degree of customer focus end up producing such a change?

Constraints or not, if you can't change things for the better, then leave them be. The whole 10 minute DART thing is a wheeze to be able to have an "improvement" to point at to justify more NTA money.
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Unread 08-04-2016, 14:42   #183
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Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
Unlike BE/DB Irish Rail does not need a licence for a route and can run whenever they like
Fair enough - but I doubt you're going to get IE operating beyond 23:30 without the same happening to DB services as well.
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Unread 08-04-2016, 14:45   #184
Mark Gleeson
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We have and continue to highlight issues with the timetable. Legally there is no concept of consultation and as long as Irish Rail is setting the timetable its not going to really work out.

The reality is that even with the proposed timetable there would have still been fewer peak hour DART services than there were in 2007.

The issue isn't the DART frequency
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Unread 08-04-2016, 14:47   #185
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Am I correct in assuming that RUI has no official standing and that submitting a list like this has as much effect as our own personal submissions. Mark's comments are excellent and I personally submitted a subset of these that were almost exactly the same.

I find it utterly absurd that there is no official response from Irish Rail regarding passenger concerns with timetables. Some of us spend far more time on trains than any senior Irish Rail manager and we'll often see things going awry in the same place at the same time every day for years. Yet nobody in Irish Rail pays any attention whatsoever to customers.

I get the distinct impression that every passenger submission on timetables goes straight into the round filing cabinet under somebody's desk. It would be a pity of an RUI submission was dealt with in the same manner as there really seems to be nobody looking after passenger interests
Given that the timetable change has been shelved for the moment, I'm not really sure what response you'd expect them to issue?

One would assume that there would have been an updated schedule taking into account as many of the opinions as possible, and I'd have expected a similar summary of submissions as the NTA do to their consultations, but given that the change isn't actually taking place there's not much point in doing that right now surely?
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Unread 08-04-2016, 14:50   #186
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Originally Posted by Jamie2k9 View Post
Having a position or not is pointless as it hold's little weight (no disrespect), the schedules are confined and largely agreed before they are published to the public.

If the NTA provided the diesel they still wouldn't operate a lather service. There is scope to run a 00.30 or even 01.00 on Fridays/Saturdays at the very least.
I think that is a very patronising view.

Sure RUI have no legal standing, but they're entitled to have a position as an organisation and I was just curious to see what it was.

Given that none of us have seen what the final post-consultation timetable is, making sweeping statements as you are is rather ridiculous. Maybe they did manage to change some of the times - I'd rather wait until seeing the final result before making fairly sweeping judgements.
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Unread 08-04-2016, 14:57   #187
James Howard
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Obviously, this particular timetable no longer matters since it has been shelved. But the principle still applies to any future timetables. Since the service is provided for passengers, why is it a difficult concept for everyone to ask the passengers what they want improved in a new timetable.

An even more radical approach might be to ask city centre employers / retailers what they would like to see improved.
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Unread 08-04-2016, 15:04   #188
berneyarms
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Obviously, this particular timetable no longer matters since it has been shelved. But the principle still applies to any future timetables. Since the service is provided for passengers, why is it a difficult concept for everyone to ask the passengers what they want improved in a new timetable.

An even more radical approach might be to ask city centre employers / retailers what they would like to see improved.
As I said above - I would certainly expect to see a summary of submissions and an official response before a new timetable is put in place. I think that is a minimum requirement these days.
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Unread 08-04-2016, 15:06   #189
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Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
We have and continue to highlight issues with the timetable. Legally there is no concept of consultation and as long as Irish Rail is setting the timetable its not going to really work out.

The reality is that even with the proposed timetable there would have still been fewer peak hour DART services than there were in 2007.

The issue isn't the DART frequency
So does that mean that you would broadly support the 10 minute frequency during the daytime, subject to the reduced frequency comment above for early mornings/late evenings?
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Unread 08-04-2016, 22:41   #190
Jamie2k9
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I think that is a very patronising view.

Sure RUI have no legal standing, but they're entitled to have a position as an organisation and I was just curious to see what it was.

Given that none of us have seen what the final post-consultation timetable is, making sweeping statements as you are is rather ridiculous. Maybe they did manage to change some of the times - I'd rather wait until seeing the final result before making fairly sweeping judgements.
I never said they couldn't have a position however it's very unlikely to have an impact. They have and continue to try make IE change/improve and do in lots of area's but to my knowledge haven't had much success or when they have it's take IE years to come round with scheduling.

Take Sunday service they have spent years calling for improvements and nothing really has happened or if RUI were against the 10 minute timetable, IE would go ahead if they could. Another example the new 06.15 ex Cork was raised (not that it would matter) and how it would impact schedules yet IE did nothing for about 2 months before it was fully sorted. When people who have zero experience with schedules could see the problems.

Timetables are 99.9% confirmed before they go to the public.

In some respects I understand why IE won't to x, y or z with schedules however some decisions would never get past unions and then others are pure unwillingness.

Take the petty change to Belfast services which are not needed but they won't tell NIR that, I'm sure the same applies here, they do not like been told how to schedule services and won't admit when maybe some valid points have been raised. If David Franks was doing his job he would tell middle management to cop on and tell NIR no changes are been implemented to Belfast services.

As for the final draft of the current schedule, we have saw it, you shouldn't believe any changes of more than 3-4 minutes were going to be made. You really give IE to much credit when it comes to scheduling.
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Unread 09-04-2016, 13:27   #191
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Originally Posted by Jamie2k9 View Post
I never said they couldn't have a position however it's very unlikely to have an impact. They have and continue to try make IE change/improve and do in lots of area's but to my knowledge haven't had much success or when they have it's take IE years to come round with scheduling.

Take Sunday service they have spent years calling for improvements and nothing really has happened or if RUI were against the 10 minute timetable, IE would go ahead if they could. Another example the new 06.15 ex Cork was raised (not that it would matter) and how it would impact schedules yet IE did nothing for about 2 months before it was fully sorted. When people who have zero experience with schedules could see the problems.

Timetables are 99.9% confirmed before they go to the public.

In some respects I understand why IE won't to x, y or z with schedules however some decisions would never get past unions and then others are pure unwillingness.

Take the petty change to Belfast services which are not needed but they won't tell NIR that, I'm sure the same applies here, they do not like been told how to schedule services and won't admit when maybe some valid points have been raised. If David Franks was doing his job he would tell middle management to cop on and tell NIR no changes are been implemented to Belfast services.

As for the final draft of the current schedule, we have saw it, you shouldn't believe any changes of more than 3-4 minutes were going to be made. You really give IE to much credit when it comes to scheduling.
Well I would prefer to be someone who waits until a final document is published before passing judgement, rather than jumping in with both feet first.

Personally I've found over the years that to be a far more sensible approach rather than making constant negative posts.
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Unread 09-04-2016, 16:45   #192
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Well I would prefer to be someone who waits until a final document is published before passing judgement, rather than jumping in with both feet first.

Personally I've found over the years that to be a far more sensible approach rather than making constant negative posts.
You choice but from going by past schedules and the alleged drafts nothing really changes. I don't see why this would be any different this time round.

The only difference I see coming is the 10 minute DART will happen towards end of the year or it won't happen at all or at least until end of 2017.
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Unread 10-04-2016, 07:26   #193
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It is clear that that IR/NTA are committed to the ten minute DART project irrespective of the consequences for other services and customers.

It looks like it will take the inevitable embarrassing mess that will occur on implementation for IR/NTA or NTA/IR to see sense and back off

It really couldn't be simpler, this timetable is not practical on a shared simple twin track infrastructure. Dublin/Drogheda/Dundalk passengers will get a preview from tomorrow of the type of messing required to support ten-minute DART frequency.

The only good thing to come out of this shambolic exercise is that additional capacity (in terms of increased set sizes) will be inserted into the DART operation from tomorrow. This and some other minor changes is all that ever needed to be done ! The current fifteen minute off-peak service is more than adequate for demand and arguably should be extended to Saturdays and Sundays when off-peak demand is usually higher anyway.

I don't take joy in being negative, a ten minute frequency DART (or better) on a four track infrastructure with airport expresses, hourly (or half hourly) Belfast services and a fast longer distance commuter service would be fantastic in making/restoring railway relevance. The current proposals do the opposite and will drive away as much business as they attract.

It is not just frequency that makes LUAS such a success, it is accessibility and station/train ambience. DART does not score as well as it should on either. It beats LUAS on the ability to move very large numbers in single trains and in the ability (and efficiency) of varying train size to meet demand.

Last edited by Inniskeen : 10-04-2016 at 08:06.
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Unread 11-04-2016, 10:54   #194
Thomas J Stamp
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We have been actually invited in the past by IE to make submissions before the public consultations regarding the timetable - there was a changed attitude within the company regarding customer consultation about 8 years ago as some of the long time managers left and were replaced with some with a more UK style customer service outlook. Another example off the top of my head was the testing of the IE smart cards by members before the public.

Weather it is window dressing or not is for others to decide, all we can do is make the submission. There was a time when IE simply wouldn't accept that we existed at all and blanked us (for a few reasons, some of them odd) and there was a time when they set up their own user groups to compete with us (where you filled out a form for a prize) but they're all gone and we're still here and we still have meetings with them (like railfuture does in the UK)

We could probably do with a passenger focus type organisation and for a while back in 2007 there was a hint or two that one was to be set up (and if there is privatisation of CIE it undoubtedly would happen then).
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Unread 12-04-2016, 14:33   #195
Jamie2k9
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Interesting what you saw about your past relationship and now.

Got an email today to join "Customer Feedback Panel" and they will conduct research/focus groups on issues what matter to people on specific routes etc.

They allege its will help shape IE future and for your voice to be heard and shape future IE services.

I'm not so optimistic about the level of success it will achieve!

Anyone else asked?
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I think putting consultations here before public is a good idea and they should revisit it.
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Unread 12-04-2016, 15:27   #196
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I got an invite and filled out the form. I'm wondering where they got my email address. They have me from complaints forms, from Taxsaver and from an application for the abandoned passenger focus group.

It might be a sign of things changing. I reckon they've had a bit of a shock at the level of opposition to the 10 minute DART timetable.
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Unread 12-04-2016, 17:18   #197
Mark Gleeson
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I think just about everyone signed up to the newsletter got the hit
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