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Unread 17-06-2012, 16:21   #1
fiskar
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Default Navan Rail link - Phase 2

Looking for some data on the above given the deferral of the line and lack of interest by local TD's in progressing the line to Navan.

Was the feasibility study by Iarnrod Eireann in 2007 ever released to the public? I would like to know what the expected passenger use was given the population of the county as expected at that time for 2015.

Failing that, what is the capacity of one train carriage as used on phase 1 of the line to Dunboyne and Pace? Phase 2 expected to use 8 carriages.

Last edited by fiskar : 19-06-2012 at 20:16.
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Unread 17-06-2012, 21:28   #2
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fiskar: what do you mean by referring to one-carriage trains being used on the line to DUnboyne and Pace? Trains are usually 2900s which means a minimum of 4 carriages or 22000s which means a minimum of three. Also the existing line can take 8 carriage trains (2900s).
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Unread 17-06-2012, 22:38   #3
Colm Moore
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Politicians are often only focused on the current election cycle.

The diesel railcars can seat 40-65 people per carriage, perhaps up to twice that standing. The 2700s are currently being withdrawn as they are the least reliable. So likely minimum train size is two carriages. http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=123&n=210

Roughan & O’Donovan / AECOM http://www.roughanodonovan.com/proje...-Rail-line.asp have the documentation substantially progressed.

Depending on external factors, primarily the economy, it might be worthwhile. In the recession, the high cost of borrowing and with the M3 in place it is unlikely to be worthwhile.

If someone has €300-500 million, things can move forward.

In the current environment, the best that can be hoped for is improving existing lines - signalling, level crossings, stations, etc.
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Unread 19-06-2012, 20:06   #4
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fiskar: what do you mean by referring to one-carriage trains being used on the line to DUnboyne and Pace? Trains are usually 2900s which means a minimum of 4 carriages or 22000s which means a minimum of three. Also the existing line can take 8 carriage trains (2900s).
merely trying to work out the capacity given that an 8 carriage train was to use the line,
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Unread 19-06-2012, 20:10   #5
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Originally Posted by Colm Moore View Post
Politicians are often only focused on the current election cycle.

The diesel railcars can carry 40-65 people per carriage. The 2700s are currently being withdrawn as they are the least reliable. So likely minimum train size is two carriages. http://www.irishrail.ie/index.jsp?p=123&n=210

Roughan & O’Donovan / AECOM http://www.roughanodonovan.com/proje...-Rail-line.asp have the documentation substantially progressed.

Depending on external factors, primarily the economy, it might be worthwhile. In the recession, the high cost of borrowing and with the M3 in place it is unlikely to be worthwhile.

If someone has €300-500 million, things can move forward.

In the current environment, the best that can be hoped for is improving existing lines - signalling, level crossings, stations, etc.
Thanks for that. 40 to 65 would put an 8 carriage capacity per service at 320 to 520. Would need to be at the higher end in my opinion.

Been on ROD website but surely the feasibility report is out there somewhere?

Last edited by fiskar : 19-06-2012 at 20:13.
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Unread 19-06-2012, 20:19   #6
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I think if there was money to build Phase 2 there would be money to refit the 27s...

I will never understand that fiasco to my dying day - a Meath minister slowpedalling a Meath railway line, a county council who seemed to be bent on sabotaging it and so on and so on...
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Unread 20-06-2012, 09:55   #7
Thomas J Stamp
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I think if there was money to build Phase 2 there would be money to refit the 27s...

I will never understand that fiasco to my dying day - a Meath minister slowpedalling a Meath railway line, a county council who seemed to be bent on sabotaging it and so on and so on...
if irish rail was a private company with big pockets it could lobby government in much the same way as the roads lobby could. As a branch of government it could not.
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Unread 20-06-2012, 19:13   #8
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Rail infrastructure such as this will the life blood of the economy going forward. You can see that in any city abroad that you visit.
The gas thing is that most motorists going to Dublin from Navan every day use the old untolled N3 to avoid the tolls and the government is using the mobile speed detecting van to try and nab them every 2nd week on the stretch into Dunshaughlin and frighten them onto the M3. That infrastructure is a pure white elephant. The rail link won't be, not the way fuel costs and congestion are going.
It might be there for my retirement in 20 years!
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Unread 20-06-2012, 19:23   #9
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We have seen the full draft railway works order

The price was over 450 million and the financial case did not stack up, given it was based on assumptions of continuing growth of population in Navan the financial case today is even worse.

This is what happens when a local politician stirs things up and gives false hope

If the speed camera trap is catching people thats their own fault for speeding, its not justification for a railway.

The existence of the M3 was the end to any real prospect for the railway, the toll operator having a contract which guarantees there income, combine that with some suspect dealings of a sewer main and Meath CC, every day more and more costly obstacles appeared
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Unread 20-06-2012, 22:05   #10
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It's a shame, because it leaves the existing M3 Parkway spur horribly underused and looking more a white elephant every day.
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Unread 21-06-2012, 20:07   #11
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Thanks Mark, agree that every day it get harder to look at the line becoming reality unless the railway order to get the land goes through. I still want it though


Totally agree Karl, the M3 parkway is very under utilised. Technically I would use this in winter but the gate fee is ridulous, just adds too much to the weekly commute cost.
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Unread 21-06-2012, 20:35   #12
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The original plan was for M3 parkway to actually be West of Dunshaughlin, on the north side of the Blackbull toll, this was fully investigated but beyond a generic cost excuse no serious investigation was ever undertaken

The plan made a huge amount of sense and the motorist availing of the train did not have to pay the toll

You can draw your own conclusions as to how the station found itself on the other side of the toll.
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Unread 21-06-2012, 21:21   #13
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The following article in the Meath Chronicle a few weeks ago about a proposed bus hub is sadly the sum total of what is planned for Navan (wish it were otherwise):
http://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/ro...loted-in-navan

The necessity for a hub is certainly not questionable as the numerous bus routes serving Navan are scattered between no less than four separate main bus stops in and adjacent to the central area (Market Square, Mercy Convent, Shopping Centre and Abbeylands South opp Fire Stn.).The bus hub proposal seems to seek an utopian location which has the dual attributes of being near the town centre and having no traffic issues. Like most provincial towns Navan suffers from traffic congestion and finding a place with both attributes will be next to impossible.

The eminently sensible and very cost effective idea of using the large yard at Navan railway station has evidently been dismissed. This yard has more area than many existing Bus Éireann stations, has quite a good surface and a waiting facility could easily be developed in part of the station building. Incidentally IÉ use some rooms in the station for offices.

This really could be done for very low money - and a quality, user-friendly result at the end...

Therefore the necessity for seeking (very expensive) land on which to build this hub is very questionable indeed. I thought the country was supposed to be using money prudently but this comes across as a quite disgraceful waste of money when the town already has such an asset already in CIÉ ownership. The railway station is also within acceptable walking distance of Trimgate Street (traditional main shopping street) and the Navan Shopping Centre. It is also beside Meath County Council's offices.

Back to rail - a personal opinion is that Kilmessan station should not feature in the Navan rail plan and a spur to Trim just five miles away should instead feature.
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Unread 27-06-2012, 21:59   #14
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Hi traincustomer

Forget about spurs as this rail link is a dead duck. With regard to the bus depot, I see alot of sense to it. It makes no sense waiting for a bus to Trim in bad weather when the bus to Trim originates in Drogehda where buses get snowed in and cannot get up the hill (yes, we have had the pleasure of this experience). The sooner the depot happens the better. Also when the 109 starts using the elephant motorway we maynot need the train for awhile to get into Dublin city quicker.

The quicker this all happens the better or I will need to move house.
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Unread 28-06-2012, 03:49   #15
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Could the line be extended to Dunshaughlin (as single track) without disproportionate expense (i.e. open country, few bridges or other expensive capital works)?

Of course there is a rail line to Navan already in place, just needs to be, eh, fixed up a bit
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Unread 28-06-2012, 14:15   #16
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Quote:
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Hi traincustomer

Forget about spurs as this rail link is a dead duck. With regard to the bus depot, I see alot of sense to it. It makes no sense waiting for a bus to Trim in bad weather when the bus to Trim originates in Drogehda where buses get snowed in and cannot get up the hill (yes, we have had the pleasure of this experience). The sooner the depot happens the better. Also when the 109 starts using the elephant motorway we maynot need the train for awhile to get into Dublin city quicker.

The quicker this all happens the better or I will need to move house.
Hello fiskar, I too very much agree with the need for the bus station. It's how that bus station comes to fruition is what I have an issue with:

* the existing railway station facility only needs a very low sum spent on it (literally in tens of thousands) to make it into a fit for purpose bus station. That would principally entail two elements. Some work in the building to provide a waiting area, toilets and possible retail space. Some work outside mainly in terms of kerbing, surfacing, footpath, marking out bays and signage. The amount of work needed really is very little and would cost very little. If this had the green light in the morning it would be completed in months rather than years. Using the railway station does not mean a second rate bus station and ticks the boxes of a central walkable location and cost-effective use of existing CIÉ-owned assets and scarce public monies (Letterkenny Bus Éireann station is an example of a former railway station in bus use).

* The other option (which is the one being pursued) comes across as very wasteful (and very slow) as it will result in spending hundreds of thousands (if not into millions) to acquire the land for the bus station. Then the whole planning process for the station. Like the railway that probably will never come one could still be discussing the awaited bus station in 2015 or 2020.

That's my reasoning for favouring using the existing station. It ticks the boxes and will deliver a bus station facility for the town fast and cost-effectively.

Until around ten years ago one of the Navan-Drogheda route buses was based in Navan overnight which was sensible. But then that bus was brought back to Drogheda garage possibly due to staffing changes and to save having to pay rent as the bus used to park in private premises. Unfortunately even if the bus station goes ahead in Navan it doesn't mean that any of the buses that run on the 188 route Trim-Navan-Drogheda will be based in Navan. Could be wrong but the information seems to suggests a station and not a garage as such. A small number of Bus Éireann buses are based overnight in the Balmoral Industrial Estate whereas the rest of the buses serving Navan all come from Broadstone/Kells/Cavan/Drogheda garages.

The Cavan-Dublin buses which depart Navan Square at xx:05 for much of the day and ex Busáras at xx:30 use the M3 between Navan and Dublin but these can be full/near-full from the Co. Cavan section of the route and several "motorway expresses" are clearly needed between Navan and Dublin especially in the peaks.

Last edited by Traincustomer : 28-06-2012 at 14:18. Reason: addition
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Unread 31-08-2017, 13:58   #17
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Default Navan line

Amazing that Navan that is easily linked by rail to Dublin has not made any progress. They will try to solve the housing crisis by more building but no strategic planning on commuter service like rail. Politicians do not think beyond the next election.
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Unread 09-09-2017, 09:56   #18
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Default Navan link

With the housing crisis a proper rail link to Navan would relieve the congestion in Dub and allow ppl to commute without adding more traffick to roads. The solution is in sight but there is no political creativity in Meath to drive it forward and offer a public friendly solution to those working and studying in the city. All over Europe there is a move to trains and in Ireland we are closing lines!
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Unread 09-09-2017, 19:33   #19
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Talking of Navan the latest incarnation of the bus service to the capital comes into effect tomorrow week (17/9/2017) with the introduction of route NX averaging a scheduled 1 hour and 4 minutes from the town’s Market Square to O’Connell Street (assuming no delays en route).

While the new bus timetable is probably the best that can be done with a multitude of traffic, operational and financial constraints ultimately it is only a sticking plaster solution and as sure as night follows day bus services on this corridor will be revised again and again in the years ahead.

My personal view is that a push ought to be made to have a commuter rail service on the existing line and I believe this could be accomplished for very little as ultimately all that is required is some work to the station at Navan, automation of Beauparc level crossing and some signalling work.

It is not the perfect solution but it is a satisfactory one and would be used. Given the present predicament of rail in the country it is extremely unlikely that the Phase 2 M3 Parkway - Navan line will get over the bar in even the medium to long-term.
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Unread 16-09-2017, 17:04   #20
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My personal view is that a push ought to be made to have a commuter rail service on the existing line and I believe this could be accomplished for very little as ultimately all that is required is some work to the station at Navan, automation of Beauparc level crossing and some signalling work.

It is not the perfect solution but it is a satisfactory one and would be used. Given the present predicament of rail in the country it is extremely unlikely that the Phase 2 M3 Parkway - Navan line will get over the bar in even the medium to long-term.
If this line is used for passenger traffic again, would it be a good idea to open a station at Duleek and reopen a small part of the Kingscourt line as far as the north end of Navan, locating a new station there as well as the main one?
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