Rail Users Ireland Forum

Go Back   Rail Users Ireland Forum > General Information & Discussion > Events, Happenings and Media
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Unread 03-05-2011, 08:37   #1
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
Default [Article] DART airport plan on track as Metro North hits the buffers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Independent

By Paul Melia

THE high-profile 2.5bn Metro North project is set to be shelved in favour of a 20-year-old plan to build an extension of the DART line to Dublin Airport, the Irish Independent has learned.

The Government has ordered Iarnrod Eireann to update the 1991 plan to build a 6.5km spur just after Clongriffin DART Station to the airport.

It is estimated the overground rail project would cost just 300m and provide a high-speed link-up to the city centre at a fraction of the cost of the underground Metro plan.

The move comes amid major concerns about funding the 2.5bn Metro North light-rail system, which was due to run from St Stephen's Green to Swords via the airport.

The DART extension was first mooted in 1991 by Iarnrod Eireann and Aer Rianta.

It was later suggested in 2005 as part of the Government's ambitious Transport 21 programme, but rejected at the time in favour of Metro North.

However, the Government has now ordered the rail company to revisit the plan because it is an affordable solution to providing Dublin Airport with a rail link to the city centre.

Under the revised plan, DART trains would run from Dublin Airport every 15 minutes from 5am to 1am, reaching Pearse or Connolly stations in just over 20 minutes.

The airport DART station would be built next to the airport terminals and would enable travellers from as far away as Greystones, Co Wicklow, to travel direct to the airport on trains.

Land costs would be minimal, as much of the land needed is agricultural and undeveloped, and there would be no need to buy extra trains.

Passengers numbers are expected at 10,000 a day and a park-and-ride site could be built nearby, probably close to the M1 motorway, to allow commuters from Swords to use the service to and from the city.

This and the airport terminus would be the only new stations on the line.

Total construction costs are estimated at 300m, including the cost of purchasing land, and the project could be completed in just three years. Up to 3,000 jobs would be created.

Design

"There's a lot of detailed design and a planning application needed," an Iarnrod Eireann spokesman said.

Transport Minister Leo Varadkar last week said just one of three major capital investment projects would go ahead from DART Underground (2bn), Metro North (2.5bn) or the link-up of the two Luas lines, called BXD.

But he also added a fourth project into the decision process -- the DART airport link.

"It is not a new proposal and has been raised before. . . However, if we cannot proceed with Metro North on the basis of cost, it may be a viable alternative," Mr Varadkar told the Irish Independent last night.

"Cost will be a very important consideration when deciding on future investments. We must ensure that any new project is affordable."

Both DART Underground and Metro North are due to be financed under Public Private Partnerships (PPP), where the private sector builds the lines and the State repays the cost over time. But sourcing funding is difficult because of the economic situation.

Mr Varadkar added: "In the absence of available PPPs, upcoming projects will have to be on a smaller scale, with costs running to hundreds of millions of euros rather than billions."

The Government has ordered a review of the capital spending programme which will be completed in the autumn, but it is understood a decision on the airport link could be made before the summer.

- Paul Melia
Irish Independent 2011
http://www.independent.ie/national-n...s-2635349.html

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 03-05-2011 at 08:40.
Mark Gleeson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2011, 09:11   #2
Thomas J Stamp
Chairman/Publicity
 
Thomas J Stamp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Home of Hurling
Posts: 2,708
Default

this was coming since in one of his replies to PQ's in the Dail, Minister Varadkar mentioned a DART to the Airport in passing. Its the little things you have to look out for.

interesting line - "there would be no need to buy extra trains" - hopefully this is in the context of DART2 and DART Underground and not otherwise.

This crosses Metro North off Varadkars beauty contest, still leaves DART Underground fighting Luas interconnecter.
__________________
We are the passengers
Thomas J Stamp is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2011, 09:26   #3
comcor
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford
Posts: 854
Default

No reason why this can't be extended to Swords and perhaps even onto Ashbourne in the longer term.

Swords and the airport were always the big selling points for Metro North. The case for Ballymun and DCU was no better than the case for many other rail projects and probably couldn't have justified the extra money.

I suppose the question becomes about the capacity of the Northern Line and it may be necessary to rexamine the idea of Howth-Howth Junction being a connection rather than a direct destination as a consequence.
comcor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2011, 10:25   #4
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
Default

The no new trains is simply achieved by killing the direct Howth service and heavily cutting back on Malahide and using the surplus in the current fleet. Clearly that is not acceptable as Malahide can fill an 8 coach DART to standing several times an hour

It is not a runner unless 4 tracks are provided across the northside and indeed the interconnector tunnel is in place also. In time terms the 748 bus can make it from Dublin Airport to Connolly station in under 25 minutes, best the DART could do (without 4 tracks) is 27-30 minutes, with 4 tracks 18 minutes. Irish Rail's plans clearly indicate non stop Connolly Airport with 4 tracks

The assessment (2004/5 ish) quoted 350-450 million depending on over or underground approach to Dublin airport, but an annual carrying of 4.6-5.4 million i.e 13-15k a day not 10k. On the positive side it would on its own make enough to bank roll the entire Dublin commuter network

About 2 months back RUI made a submission to the NTA with respect to the 2030 vision document, based on meetings with people on the Northern Irish side with respect to Belfast and the new EU transport policy and knowing Irish Rail has been told that 4 tracks can't be done from Rahney to Howth Junction, we proposed an alternative loosely phrased as Interconnector phase 2

Quote:
2. Proposed 4 tracks between Connolly and Ballbriggan

Fully support this vision element and view this as the most important rail infrastructure element post Interconnector/DART underground construction. However we raise considerable concern as to the practicality of the proposals contained in the 2030 Vision. 4 tracks Connolly Balbriggan will require massive property acquisition and demolition through north Dublin, numerous bridges requiring rebuild and considerable challenges through Malahide and across the Broadmeadows Estuary which is a SAC. While the final result would deliver a substantial capacity increase there would be years of very considerable disruption to service at a level much greater than that experienced the Kildare Route Project. Considering these concerns and recognising the economic corridor which exists between Dublin and Belfast and proposed EU transport policy of high speed rail over short to medium distance and heavy rail connections to airports.

Alternative option for investigation

4 Track Connolly to Killester achievable thanks to front loading of infrastructure e.g. east wall bridge was built for 4 tracks. 2 track on west side of current alignment
2 Track line diverges south of Killester (Golf Course) into a tunnel to Dublin Airport, station (4 platforms) Dublin Airport and then surfaces north of Airport adjacent to M1 avoiding the SAC of Broadmeadows Estuary and rejoining the exiting rail route just north of Donabate

This route provides a significant catchment area increase and recognises Dublin Airport as a both a key international and regional transport interchange location. Provides also a high quality public transport option from North Dublin, Meath, Louth and Northern Ireland direct to Dublin Airport while maintaining a direct connection to Dublin. Eliminates the need for any work in the Killester - Donabate section and provides a separate 2 track line providing redundancy
Mark Gleeson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2011, 12:49   #5
comcor
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford
Posts: 854
Default

As a proposal, it's pretty good, but presumably it would cost quite an amount of money and take some time.

In the shorter term, are there many stations that could be quad tracked through the stations to allow InterCity and Commuter trains to pass DARTs?

I would imagine Clontarf Rd and Howth Junction.

Also, possibly Raheny and Kilbarrack if you moved them from their current location?

I haven't travelled through Clongriffen since it opened. I assume it was only built with 2 lines through?

Last edited by comcor : 03-05-2011 at 13:49. Reason: Said Harmonstown when I meant Clongriffen
comcor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2011, 13:45   #6
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
Default

Irish Rail's reports favour 2 tracks on western side. 3 tracks possible within existing boundary. 4 tracks would require land acquisition. Every station and bridge would need to be rebuilt

The problem is Rahney to North of Howth Junction, there was no way to reasonably fit 4 tracks, only 3. Now the proposals suggested grade separation at Howth Junction. The Airport spur would be grade separated and merge just north of Clongriffen which is built with 4 platform already

The scale of disruption required would be immense and that is a serious concern

Should be noted the DART, 29000, ICR and Mk4 fleets are all designed to cat B fire standards and can operate in long tunnels. All you have to worry about is ventilation.

Cost wise to get 4 tracks in to Clongriffen would be 600+ million, add 400 million to get to the Airport and some extra trains say 100 million you are already 1.1 billion down, add in 4 tracks to Donabate could be another 400 million. But your airport spur is 8km the wrong way so a very slow route if you want to do Ballbriggan Airport Dublin its out as is Dublin Belfast via Airport as it adds 16km to the journey

Our tunnel option plus the loop back towards Rush and Lusk would be ballpark 2 billion, but its direct and avoids the need to grade separate Howth Junction, dig up Killester Donabate, avoids Malahide Esturary and provides a new service from north of the Airport. Best of all in distance terms its 2-3km extra at most but without the curves or traffic of the existing route so you can fly along at full speed. All Ballbriggan/Drogheda/Dundalk/Belfast would divert via tunnel. DART from Rush and Lusk on existing route. P&R and interchange at Rush and Lusk

Ignoring the complexities in isolation the spur doesn't work you need 4 track and interconnector and if you are going to go that far you might as well get the full package
Mark Gleeson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2011, 14:15   #7
ThomasJ
Member
 
ThomasJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Clonsilla
Posts: 2,812
Default

Has anyone got access to ies initial plans for the DART dating back to 1991?

is it available online?
ThomasJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2011, 14:23   #8
ThomasJ
Member
 
ThomasJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Clonsilla
Posts: 2,812
Default

What about revisiting the maynooth line option? The spur would have been just after phoenix park?
ThomasJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2011, 14:34   #9
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
Default

File and materials in Members area ------>
Mark Gleeson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2011, 15:13   #10
eugene
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 132
Default

If I remember rightly, the original spur was to be have been though the Pelletstown/Royal Canal Park development, then would of looping round Finglas/Ballymun before heading to the Airport..
eugene is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2011, 15:26   #11
dowlingm
Really Really Regluar Poster
 
dowlingm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,371
Default

What about terminal capacity at Connolly?
dowlingm is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2011, 15:47   #12
comcor
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford
Posts: 854
Default

Presumably, this would be in association with the Interconnector, so the trains would use it to get to Heuston and beyond.

Having a single connection from Heuston to the Airport is IMO a positive move.

There may have to be some thought given to how to connect the Sligo and Belfast lines though (Rosslare could connect at Pearse or possibly even have direct services).

I guess Sligo trains could run through to Pearse (or it could make an argument for Rosslare-Sligo direct.

Dundalk and Drogheda passengers could connect at Howth Junction. It would be questionable whether the numbers on services from the North could justify stopping Belfast InterCities there.
comcor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-05-2011, 16:25   #13
dowlingm
Really Really Regluar Poster
 
dowlingm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,371
Default

Has anyone costed an express route from Donabate to Drogheda for Enterprise/express suburban/Tara to avoid 4-tracking Donabate-Balbriggan? The right time for this was during M1 land take but we couldn't have road and rail sharing infrastructure...

I'm a bit concerned about the Clontarf GC-M50 route - property values are depressed enough so I imagine the locals won't be thrilled at the possibility of a TBM putting cracks in their foundations, given the lack of a nearby arterial to run under.

@comcor - if BXD happens Interconnector is dead, and the article above makes no reference to Heuston.
dowlingm is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-05-2011, 13:58   #14
eugene
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 132
Default

But seriously, if the RUI suggestion is taken on board, is all the design work for Metro North redundant? How long would it take then to design the new tunnel and then enquiries and EIS documents, just like the whole process for the Dart Underground.. what 10 years wasted with Metro North? Unbelievable, what a country

If Metro North is cancelled, will it be replaced like you suggested with buses via the Port Tunnel.. a good compromise if the Dart Underground project is prioritised?
eugene is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-05-2011, 15:38   #15
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
Default

The proposal is not a replacement for metro north but a next step after interconnector to address the Northern line issue and the submission identifies MN and IC as being priorities for completion before this. Cost and planning wise it would take some years but ideally that work would be done when interconnector was being built. Thats why it was sent in under the 2030 vision its clearly not a runner in the current situation. Remember only 25% of metro north business is Dublin Airport so its not a replacement there is a need for some form of north south link

There would be a huge amount of reusability in design and equipment terms as you would reuse the TBM and general station design already paid for elsewhere

The professional view on the DART spur is its a not a runner on its own. The general view on DART to airport is to lash down a tunnel from the city to the airport. Until now no one has actually put a pen to paper and to propose and reason out a route. We simply picked Killester on the basis of space available and it would allow a multitude of options as in Connolly or IC and it avoids going under the Port Tunnel as well
Mark Gleeson is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-05-2011, 20:08   #16
Colm Moore
Local Liaison Officer
 
Colm Moore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,442
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by eugene View Post
But seriously, if the RUI suggestion is taken on board, is all the design work for Metro North redundant?
MN would still serve all the stations from St. Stephen's to Ballymun - that is lots of people who currently don't have a rail service.
__________________
Colm Moore is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 05-05-2011, 21:29   #17
comcor
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford
Posts: 854
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm Moore View Post
MN would still serve all the stations from St. Stephen's to Ballymun - that is lots of people who currently don't have a rail service.
Not really though, is it?

For one thing, the Sligo line already serves a good portion of the area.

Also, the population would be lower than on a line that ran from Kent Station through Cork City Centre onto UCC (13,000 students) and CIT (17,000 students) to Ballincollig, but that's not even being considered for a tramway.

The line only makes sense if it connects up Dublin Airport and Swords, but if there's a cheaper way of doing that.
comcor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-05-2011, 08:03   #18
markpb
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 541
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by comcor View Post
For one thing, the Sligo line already serves a good portion of the area.
How are you comparing Metro North with a suburban commuter line? They don't serve the same areas (except for Drumcondra) and they don't serve the same functions.

Quote:
Also, the population would be lower than on a line that ran from Kent Station through Cork City Centre onto UCC (13,000 students) and CIT (17,000 students) to Ballincollig, but that's not even being considered for a tramway.
Are you saying that the population of Dublin city centre and Dublin north central is less than the population of Cork and Ballincollig (which between them have a residential populations of less than 150,000)? I seriously doubt that.
markpb is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 06-05-2011, 09:06   #19
comcor
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford
Posts: 854
Default

Greater Cork area has a population of 190,000 according to the CSO (and I'm not sure if that figire includes Ballincollig, but we'll say for argument that it does).

My point is that if you take out Swords and the airport, the population along a line that has a route like that is greater (as is the number of students at third level institutions) than the route between Glasnevin and Ballymun.

From Drumcondra south, there is the Sligo line, the LUAS and no great walk to get to the DART.

Swords and the airport get a service under the alternative proposals anyway.

BTW I'm not claiming that a line along that route should be built in Cork, just using it to illustrate that possibly the argument for it in terms of transport on the northside of Dublin isn't as financially strong as some may believe.
comcor is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 09-05-2011, 14:58   #20
Alan French
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 89
Default

If I remember right, one of the earlier reports (about 2000) proposed a railway from Broombridge to the airport, using the free space in the middle of Finglas. This could then continue to Swords. The same report also proposed a tramline via Drumcondra and Ballymun, to link up with this line.

If the aim is to serve the airport as cheaply as possible using branches off the existing lines, this is probably better than a line from Clongriffin. It's not ideal, of course. Because of capacity problems, the trains would probably have to go from Docklands. The junction at Broombridge would be quite complicated.

Of course, I'm still backing Metro North, and I only mention this because if it's a case of "back to the drawing board", this line is an option.

It's strange how changeable public opinion is. In 1994, when the Luas was first proposed, a line to Ballymun was mentioned. No one particularly thought about the airport. Nowadays many people's only concern is about linking the airport - never mind if the other suburbs aren't served! People ask me why they need to go to the expense of tunnelling under north Dublin, when they could easily build a spur from Clongriffin. I reply that it is part of a plan to provide rail or tram links to as many suburbs as possible, not just to link the airport with the city centre.

By the way, I'd have no problem with a tram link from Cork to Ballincollig.
Alan French is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 16:40.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.