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Unread 08-04-2010, 11:21   #61
ThomasJ
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it doesn't suprise me that this is happening with the current transport minister in place others would not have allowed this.

It wouldn't surprise if cutting the current connolly-rosslare services back to wexford is also on the agenda.

Its a shame my thought was that at worse extend the current heuston-waterford intercity services to wexford and rosslare as a result people at campile etc would still have a proper service, people south of heuston could get to wexford and rosslare without having to travel through dublin and so on it was different! Its a pity irish rail have no creative thinking in them!
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Unread 08-04-2010, 11:26   #62
Mark Gleeson
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The notice period is 8 weeks under the transport act

Quote:
(3) The Board shall not terminate a service or close a railway station to any or all classes of traffic unless, at least two months before doing so, the Board has published, in Iris Oifigiúil and in such newspapers circulating in the area affected by the proposal as the Board thinks proper, notice of its intention to do so.
They also need a variance on the contract with the NTA

Of course can the board of CIE stand over this

Quote:
(2) The Board shall not terminate a service unless it is satisfied that its operation is uneconomic and that there is no prospect of its continued operation being economic within a reasonable period.
Given no effort has been made to improve the viability of the line, or to cut costs i.e Wellingtonbridge signalbox could be switched out the requirement might not be satisfied.

For reference a 3 coach ICR would use twice the fuel of a 2 coach 2700 and would be slower point to point and massively increase track wear. What you need is a train from Rosslare to Galway with connections to Dublin and Cork services at points en route

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 08-04-2010 at 11:29.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 13:13   #63
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Mark - I'm not a technical person so please can you expand upon this point: 'For reference a 3 coach ICR would use twice the fuel of a 2 coach 2700 and would be slower point to point and massively increase track wear.'

Anyway an ICR would not be needed just a revamped 2700 would do nicely.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 13:40   #64
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PLUMB LOCO - don't have the specs to hand but suspect a 22K being a 100mph set is optimised for higher cruise speeds so the gearing is probably not optimised for rattling along at 40mph. Also, the additional on-train systems probably mean higher power consumption from the electrical generators as opposed to the simpler 2700s.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 14:52   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO View Post
Mark - I'm not a technical person so please can you expand upon this point: 'For reference a 3 coach ICR would use twice the fuel of a 2 coach 2700 and would be slower point to point and massively increase track wear.'

Anyway an ICR would not be needed just a revamped 2700 would do nicely.
Previous poster suggested extension of Waterford intercity service to South Wexford line.

Report from shed in Cork stated 20% more fuel 3 car ICR vs 4 car 2700 per day, so a 2 car 2700 uses half (not exactly half due aerodynamic drag). ICR is useless in low speed stop start operation, it was designed for long distance high speed start stop, it must get above 60mph before it shows any serious performance and burns a lot of fuel to get there. 2700 is faster to 60mph and anyway the regional routes are 50mph tops

Just having the heating on a Mk3 set would use more fuel in a day that either before you add fuel for an engine

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 08-04-2010 at 15:40.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 17:15   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
Curiously Irish Rail have told us of no plan to close the line in the near future. We asked them, the talk is coming from the DoT not IE that said Irish Rail is notorious for not knowing what it is doing.
After you made that quote, John Lynch announced the closure. Furthermore you say you were invited to a meeting with IE to discuss it. What did you do at that meeting? Roll over and have your tummy tickled?

The response from RUI to this has been very poor and I mean that in all sincerity.

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We met IE last week and discussed the matter and others (at IE's invitation I might add), in fact we where the the first in to discuss, the crew from Wexford only met IE last night.

Press release issued, positive response on that but the problem is we are not the producers of the radio news. Though the issue of through services from Galway to Rosslare was on the 1 O'Clock on iRadio West on WRC opening day I got interviewed about the WRC and related issues, not WOT.

With NAMA going through there was little interest in the media with a little railway line in Wexford, several print media pieces got deferred or dropped. We have been in communication with the group in Wexford, and indeed with others in Waterford and our proposals met with positive feedback but no one has the money to front the cost of the investment.
That paragraph sums you up Mark. It looks like RUI has become an Irish Rail lacky. For the last 12 months I havent even visited this forum for any longer than a mistaken link and in that 12 months I've learned what its like to be joe public and appreciate how anonymous RUI are now.

Between this and the WRC press release, if your committee had both sense and balls, they'd be giving you the push. RUI has become a talking shop and lab rat for Irish Rail.

Apologies for gate crashing your little party, but when you actually care about matters and not your ego, these things have to be said.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 18:42   #67
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At the very least RUI should be pushing IE to redeploy the cut service to where a need can be shown rather than simply "vanish" it.

For instance, send the 2027 arr ex Limerick Junction express to Carlow and back. At a stroke, you extend the "last train" Waterford-Dublin AND Dublin-Waterford by two hours, and if the LJ arrival could be reliably accelerated maybe even stop in Kilkenny.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 21:15   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasJ View Post
It wouldn't surprise if cutting the current connolly-rosslare services back to wexford is also on the agenda.
That sounds like something Irish rail would do alright, disconnect their port from their railway system.

Presumably Irish Rail want this line shut before the summer in case tourists use it.
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Unread 08-04-2010, 21:25   #69
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Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO View Post
The Western Rail Corridor (Claremorris/Limerick portion) in 1976. I thought we had moved on from here!
Ironic, the greens are in govt and we get rail closures and bus cutbacks all over the country.

Any chance we'll see Cuffe and O'Brolchain making a self-promotional video on the day of the closure?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CcbiWSo-Kg
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Unread 09-04-2010, 19:50   #70
Mark Gleeson
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Irish Rail have changed their stance and it sounds like something is afoot
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/i...re-453309.html

For the record the last passenger line to close was Athlone-Mullingar in 1987

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 09-04-2010 at 19:52.
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Unread 09-04-2010, 21:03   #71
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Let me guess, a Dan Boyle twitter?

If IE are reversed on this we have a right to know who's making the decisions and the overrides - the process of both incepting and ending service is farcical at present when you consider the hoops the bus companies are made jump through.
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Unread 09-04-2010, 21:34   #72
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The goal is to get the the control of these issues away from IE

We the people need to spec the service, not quite as low as the specific times, but who many trains, journey times, connection requirements and so on

We pay for what we get in a transparent manner, just like the UK franchise arrangements service specification. There is political support on that and the idea is something we have discussed with politicians.
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Unread 09-04-2010, 21:55   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
The goal is to get the the control of these issues away from IE

We the people need to spec the service, not quite as low as the specific times, but who many trains, journey times, connection requirements and so on

We pay for what we get in a transparent manner, just like the UK franchise arrangements service specification. There is political support on that and the idea is something we have discussed with politicians.
Hammer on the head! If CIE/Irish Rail are not willing to provide the service someone else should be given the choice! We might actually see a decent service then!
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Unread 10-04-2010, 11:19   #74
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"We the people need to spec the service, not quite as low as the specific times, but who many trains, journey times, connection requirements and so on"

Agreed. Whichever body decided that Dublin to Cork should be hourly, Dublin to Sligo should be 2 hourly etc should also be responsible for dictating frequency of all lines. How long is it since there was more than 1 passenger train daily in each direction on this line?

At least potential closure has focused minds a bit on this and the lack of sense and conflict of simultaneously reopening one line and closing another line.
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Unread 10-04-2010, 11:53   #75
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Problem is Irish Rail decide currently, Dublin Cork isn't hourly really, The best comparision is the PSO air routes, a company is required to operate a certain number of flights per week, provide a certain number of seats and provide at least x seats at or below a defined price.

The UK model is based on input from passenger groups, the overall strategic goals and consultants and the rail regulator which sets a set of franchise requirements in terms of what must be provided

Failure to meet those standard results in serious trouble and potential loss of franchise, i.e Connex and most recently GNER who couldn't meet the financial premium (GNER was a profitable franchise and paid a fixed sum per annum to the UK exchequer). Despite these restrictions, any company which can exceed the baseline is free to do so, e.g Chiltern
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Unread 10-04-2010, 12:55   #76
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Would I be right is assuming that the costs of installing modern automated level crossing systems on the Rosslare Waterford Limerick Junction / Nenagh lines is one of the reasons why the closure plans have been drawn up to save costs?

I know there are numerous level crossings from on the South Wexford line for example. Not to mention the rail line running through the Wexford Town Quays

Would it be possible for Wexford Council / IE to close at least some of these backroads / level crossings or perhaps to contribute towards modernisation / upgrade budgets?

If the rest of the railway network is being bought up to modern safety standards, then a way to resolve this issue would make the future for these lines more viable, & hopefully provide faster & eventually more frequent services for passengers.
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Unread 10-04-2010, 13:03   #77
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What does the NTA contract currently specify with respect to Limerick Junction-Waterford-Rosslare?
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Unread 10-04-2010, 13:38   #78
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The current rail safety program was to automate the line from Limerick Junc to Waterford and possibly to Rosslare (it would cost a wopping 2 million extra) Waterford station needs to be totally rebuilt not only the building but all the track and signals, thats potentially a 20-30 million euro job. In theory the whole line from Limerick Junc to Rosslare would require only 1 signalman vs 7 current. There is a committed budget for some of this and some EU money.

Each km of track costs 30-40k per annum to run and that is independent of the number of trains to some degree.

Level crossings are dealt with based on a risk analysis which takes into account the type of crossing, the number of trains and there speed as well as crossing usage both car and foot, so regional lines aren't high on the list. An automatted level crossing is about 700k-1million in cost terms the signalling offers more savings for less outlay and that is why it happens first
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Unread 10-04-2010, 13:43   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dowlingm View Post
What does the NTA contract currently specify with respect to Limerick Junction-Waterford-Rosslare?
Its in the contract, we are waiting for a copy of that schedule from the NTA. It is not in the public domain, though we have a very good idea what it will look like based on the informal agreements that IE had in the past.
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Unread 10-04-2010, 14:32   #80
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I could have sworn there was discussion a while back about some agreement IE had which excluded certain lines and which led us to think IE had left themselves a back door.
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