[Articles] DART Underground

[Mark Gleeson]

Subject to funding...

With the move to Inchicore its a lot cheaper and easier to do. Its separate

Some of it can be done without planning permission

[ACustomer]

If the link between the 4-track KRP and the Underground is not done properly, then you will have 2 massively expensive projects with a huge reduction in capacity because of a bottleneck junction which will cost much more to rectify at a later date as opposed to doing it as part of what in reality should be one project.

Why is there no joined-up thinking? Reminds me of the city-centre DASH project where the most congested part of the system is neglacted.

You couldn't make it up.

[CorkALVIN]

One suggestion here is that the proposed tunnels should be built to Berne Gauge so as to allow doubledeck rolling-stock which might become necessary for increasingly busy commuter routes, as well as standard Berne-Guage freight containers and wagons to enable the use of the link for freight at offpeak times. This should also be considered as of potential benefit if a fixed Britain-Ireland rail link is ever built, which would also require some kind of 'Talgo' dual rail-guage Intercity carriages and wagons; after all, such a project as the Dart Subway tunnel will have at least 100 years working life ahead of it.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by karlr42

On another note, I was the only person to view the documents today, according to the sign-in sheet.

Where are the documents on display? They should be in a public area with no need to sign in.

[karlr42]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

Where are the documents on display? They should be in a public area with no need to sign in.

In the conference room behind the stairs on platform 2. I got the impression from the attendant that signing-in was not essential and was just to track interest.

[finnyus]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

If the link between the 4-track KRP and the Underground is not done properly, then you will have 2 massively expensive projects with a huge reduction in capacity because of a bottleneck junction....

The junction with the tunnel at Inchicore will have to be grade separated, to make sure that no disruption to the traffic in-and-out of Heuston. In Osterfeld, Stuttgart, which was station not so long ago, was the starting point of a section of 4 tracking (similar to the KRP). Google Maps Link. Like the KRP, the outside tracks are the fast tracks, and the middle tracks are used for the stopping trains. The link above shows the point were the middle tracks enter the tunnel to travel under the city, and the outside lines continue above ground towards main station - no conflicts, as the junction is completely grade-separated. Would something like this be possible @ Inchicore? Have the initial track plans started yet?

[Mark Gleeson]

A grade separated junction is provided for in the future at Inchicore

The details are all available online

[finnyus]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

A grade separated junction is provided for in the future at Inchicore

So initially to access the tunnels, will be over a flat crossing?

[Mark Gleeson]

It will be grade separated from day one

The section south of Inchicore is a separate project

Its clearly shown in the plans as being grade separated but separate

[ACustomer]

But look at the other end (East Wall Jcn): a right mess and as far as I can see a flat junction.

[finnyus]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

But look at the other end (East Wall Jcn): a right mess and as far as I can see a flat junction.

What section of the http://www.dartundergroundrailwayorder.ie/ are ye looking at ?

[Mark Gleeson]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

But look at the other end (East Wall Jcn): a right mess and as far as I can see a flat junction.

It is but only Dundalk and Belfast inbound services will conflict, outbound trains will not.

[Kilocharlie]

Apparently they looked at several options for the East Wall including a grade separated junction but concluded that the additional benefit did not justify the extra cost and difficulties involved. The discussion is in the EIS report.

[karlr42]

Good communication from IE's Facebook page:

this simply refers to the fact that KRP2 will be dealt with under a separate project, as will all the various electrifications etc which will feed into the wider network DART Underground delivers. These projects are scheduled to be delivered at or before DART Underground is completed.

Which assuages my fears.

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by karlr42

Good communication from IE's Facebook page:

Which assuages my fears.

not neccessarily,

it wasnt long ago they were saying 2012 for DART line services on the Maynooth.

No doubt, its going to be late a year or two but it will still be long before the underground. the major thing for the maynooth line at the moment is its tied in with the city centre resignalling.

[cagey]

I have come late to this discussion, but if DART Underground is built with an easy grade separation option and combined with new signaling, then almost the whole system can be joined.
The fact that the Maynooth line is diesel is easily fixed with EDE (Electric/Diesel/Electric) or EDEMU (trains combined making a Multiple Unit). These trains can travel on Electric or Underground (turning off the diesel/electric). Now Maynooth line users can choose a train to St Stephens Green without an interchange as also current DART users from Raheny etc. can travel to Bray or St Stephens by choice.
A further advantage is that gaps (15 to 20 mins) in schedules (due to Mainline trains to Connolly not four-tracked) can be filled in the Dart Underground by Maynooth Trains to the City and on to Heuston.
The same applies to North-bound travellers from south of Pearse, who by choice could travel North or West (Maynooth).
Also current DART users to Tara or Connolly won't be shafted by DU and CIE may hold on to them.
There are a lot more advantages when you bring Metro North into the mix.

All the above requires is a small change to the proposed DU rails at West Road and diverting freight at Phibsborough, but I am not sure if bull-headed CIE will accept this ... we shall see.
I will try to show an image in here, but not sure I can.

[cagey]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Slow news day indeed.

It once again exposes the inability of Irish Rail to actually communicate clearly with the public as to the scope and impact of what is proposed

Under the current plans you could have Maynooth-Hazelhatch and Balbriggan-Bray if you wanted, in fact it will be built such that such would be possible for non service trains, but in use it doesn't make sense

The logic behind the two routes is sound and provides the maximum level of integration and ensures you can get from any rail (or metro) station in Dublin to any other with at most a single change,.

I saw your entry a bit late Mark ... the problem is that as the DU RO stands there will be no Maynooth to Hazelhatch direct option (they said "later" and they even altered the drawings to show a dotted line but confirmed a flat junction at North Wall Yard).
Meanwhile, there will indeed be no Howth to Tara Street if DU RO goes ahead, and Gaybo (Sydney Parade) will have a long walk at Pearse.

[cagey]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

It is but only Dundalk and Belfast inbound services will conflict, outbound trains will not.

I am afraid you have not thought this one through Mark.
Before a mainline train can leave Connolly all the DART trains going north will have to be cleared to Howth Junction (usually to Kilbarrack suffices for Howth DARTs) and also as far as Malahide. This means no DART train will leave the DU (or Connolly at the moment) for 15 to 20 mins. Of course there will be no delay after the mainline train has passed but that is a bit too late.
I am afraid until 4-tracking is done north there will be "gaps" both ways. And I as a rule get my timing wrong both ways ... I hate those "gaps". Even the "Loop-line" congestion is not as bad as those Blxxx gaps.

[cagey]

Originally Posted by Kilocharlie

Apparently they looked at several options for the East Wall including a grade separated junction but concluded that the additional benefit did not justify the extra cost and difficulties involved. The discussion is in the EIS report.

I read the EIS report and it is in grave error as it assumes the current DU RO West Road/Ossary Road realignment and a new rail-over-road bridge at West Road are necessary, but there is a much cheaper and better alternative costing 10s of millions less, that would allow for easy grade separation (from freight) and reasonably easy junction with the Maynooth line.

[Colm Moore]

Irish Rail is uploading its documents for the oral hearing here: http://www.irishrail.ie/dupdfs/filelist.aspx