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Unread 14-04-2010, 00:48   #1
sean
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Default Submission to the NTA about Waterford-Rosslare?

Hi everyone, I'm not on Facebook so I can't join the save the Rosslare Railway FB group, but I just read this post on boards
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=430
and am tempted to jump in and make an emailed submission to the NTA about the proposed closure.

I have read that the 25 people who use the railway each day, do so in spite of IEs best efforts. Obviously I wouldn't put such accusations in a submission, but it does lead me to conclude that the whole thing stinks to hell.

Therefore, I'm looking for advice on what sort of submission I should make? How I should word it etc. (bear in mind I'm not personally familiar with the line at all).

A few questions:
  1. What, at a fundamental level, makes the line worth trying to save?
  2. How is Irish Rails mal-administration of the line limiting its potential?
  3. What opportunities and social benefits could a properly run line offer?
  4. If the line is saved, what (realistically) should happen next?
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Unread 14-04-2010, 06:34   #2
Mark Gleeson
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Deadline past yesterday at 5pm as far as I know

The NTA has confirmed receipt of the RUI submission

While some people are getting very excited about the fact IE don't own the route, it doesn't actually make any difference
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Unread 14-04-2010, 11:10   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
Deadline past yesterday at 5pm as far as I know

The NTA has confirmed receipt of the RUI submission

While some people are getting very excited about the fact IE don't own the route, it doesn't actually make any difference
so how about asking the people who actually own the line to get someone else to run the service ?
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Unread 14-04-2010, 11:32   #4
Mark Gleeson
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The only company authorised under EU law to carry passengers on scheduled services in Ireland is IE, NIR can also provided the train crosses the border. The RPSI do not have a license to run, IE/NIR run the trains for them.

Lots of people have gone looking for something that is not there with the whole Fishguard and Rosslare company, IE are fully liable for all losses and gains on the Irish side. The company is not trading and doesn't seem to exist bar a complex set of shareholder capital management processes

The accounts state
Quote:
By virtue of Agreements dated 27 May 1898 and 14 February 1903, scheduled to the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Acts 1899 and 1903 respectively, the Company's undertaking on the English side is managed by Stena Line Ports Limited as regards Fishguard Harbour and by Stena Line Limited as regards the shipping service between Fishguard and Rosslare; the undertaking on the Irish side is managed by Iarnrod Eireann (Irish Rail). The managing companies are entitled to the receipts and responsible for any losses of the parts of the undertaking under their respective management, and such receipts and losses are not reflected in these accounts. Payment of dividends on the Preference Stock (other than that on which the right to dividend has been irrevocably waived by the holders thereof) is guaranteed by Coras Iompair Eireann and the British Railways Board.

The whole of the Company's ordinary capital is held by Stena Line Ports Limited and Iarnrod Eireann, from which companies the Directors are appointed. The emoluments of the Directors are paid by their respective appointing companies, and are not borne by the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company. Because the Company is not trading, the main responsibility of the Directors is to maintain and service the Company's capital. These accounts relate to their discharge of that responsibility.
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Unread 14-04-2010, 18:02   #5
PLUMB LOCO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
The only company authorised under EU law to carry passengers on scheduled services in Ireland is IE, NIR can also provided the train crosses the border. The RPSI do not have a license to run, IE/NIR run the trains for them.

Lots of people have gone looking for something that is not there with the whole Fishguard and Rosslare company, IE are fully liable for all losses and gains on the Irish side. The company is not trading and doesn't seem to exist bar a complex set of shareholder capital management processes

I spoke to someone in the NTA today and he confirmed that while they are NOT seeking submissions they are happy to receive them and there is NO deadline. Might I ask where you got the account information for the FRRHCo? Until someone convinces me otherwise I will remain in the belief that the FRRHCo is the achilles heel in CIE's campaign to close the line. Incidentally, how come a dismissed director of IE - Keenan - is still on the board of the FRRHCo on behalf of CIE/IE?

Last edited by Colm Moore : 14-04-2010 at 22:44. Reason: [/quote]
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Unread 14-04-2010, 23:32   #6
Mark Gleeson
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There is a deadline since the NTA must reply to IE within a set number of weeks from there request, that was yesterday as that was 10 working days from the request IE made for a variance on the contract, as per section 4.3 of the contract NTA - IE

Sure that deadline can be waived if both parties agree, now do you honestly think IE will agree to drag it out? Regardless there is no legal obligation to even consider the submissions. The DoT naturally gave IE an exemption from EC1371/2007 which would have legally required RUI and certain others to be consulted under EU law (The nice people in the European Rail Agency in Brussels recognise us)

The F&RHRco is a shell company, the only point we have a shot at is if IE start to lift the line at which point they are impacting on the assets held by the company, IE have indicated over and over again there are no plans to lift or sell off

The Transport Act does not prohibit IE from withdrawing services, a line closure is a different issue. There is some historical precedents with the F&RHRco which support this view, full details are awaited. The NTA can of course refuse the variance on the contract.

That quote is from the accounts of 2003 I think

Mr Kennan is still an paid employee of Irish Rail, he has not been dismissed

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 14-04-2010 at 23:34.
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Unread 29-04-2010, 10:17   #7
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The NTA has requested further information from Irish Rail before making a decision.
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Unread 06-05-2010, 22:47   #8
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What type of information are they looking for?
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Unread 07-05-2010, 20:05   #9
Mark Gleeson
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Sadly we don't know exactly, it appears to relate to what the plan would be if the line was closed.

If IE cannot provide a reasonable alternative they can be refused permission to close. Given the unique nature of the route this is a strong possibilty
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Unread 09-05-2010, 23:49   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
Sadly we don't know exactly, it appears to relate to what the plan would be if the line was closed.

If IE cannot provide a reasonable alternative they can be refused permission to close. Given the unique nature of the route this is a strong possibilty

Then the plan of attack should be to point out that replacing a poorly run train service with a bus service is unacceptable.

Reasons:
1) Despite only one service each way at inconvienient times there is still a demand for a RAIL service (at least 25 passengers a day each way according to IE, I wouldn't mind seeing an independent survey either) IR said that it's used mainly by WIT students, well what about students that want to go back to Waterford on a Sunday-No service for them! So the strongest market share isn't even being properly catered for.

2)There are already numerous Bus services from Rosslare Europort to Waterford (5-6 a day in fact so no wonder the rail service is suffering!), adding more buses to the roads is unnecessary duplication of services, and diverting current ones from the N25 route to go through South Wexford adds on such a journey time that it degrades the bus commuters service. A lose lose situation all round.

Last edited by Magpie : 09-05-2010 at 23:52.
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Unread 10-05-2010, 06:38   #11
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Thats already been done
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Unread 10-05-2010, 08:30   #12
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I know but with these things the message needs to be repeated. Look at the campaign to reverse the cutting of the southeast SAR, it was so robust that the dept came to the public saying the decision was reversed all in a very short time frame.
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Unread 10-05-2010, 08:38   #13
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It's also worth pointing out what happened to other bus services that replaced train services.

In the recent round of cuts, Bus Eireann got rid of a lot of them. In this part of the world, the Mallow-Fermoy-Dungarvan-Waterford service is set to be axed. I'm sure that applies elsewhere in the country as well.
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Unread 10-05-2010, 09:45   #14
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The NTA is considering the position following submissions, there being a process set down in the contracts in place.

Irish Rail have been asked to provide additional information. Our submission http://www.railusers.ie/resources/nt..._waterford.php was made before the deadline and the NTA have confirmed receipt of.

We are working with interested parties on an alternative plan, history has shown that Irish Rail back down when a third party threatens to expose them for what they are. It doesn't involve the RPSI, its about a real service with real trains.
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Unread 10-05-2010, 15:17   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comcor View Post
It's also worth pointing out what happened to other bus services that replaced train services.

In the recent round of cuts, Bus Eireann got rid of a lot of them. In this part of the world, the Mallow-Fermoy-Dungarvan-Waterford service is set to be axed. I'm sure that applies elsewhere in the country as well.
Please correct me if there has been a subsequent happening but I travelled on the final Mallow-Dungarvan bus on Saturday 27th February. A new timetable with just one SuO journey on the Lismore - Waterford section (and no service during the week) was introduced the following day.

Incidentally this bus route was well used, the final journey was being used by no less than around 40 passengers in the course of its journey.

A rail feeder bus Fermoy/Mitchelstown to Mallow was contained in plans announced in recent years but hasn't materialised and is assumed dropped.

Neither Mallow nor Thurles railway stations are now served by bus as a result of the recent BÉ cuts.
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Unread 20-05-2010, 21:34   #16
PLUMB LOCO
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Default All over bar the shouting.

From the Facebook campaign tonight: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/...d=367387502018

Joe Ryan Tomorrows papers will carry notices from Irish Rail setting out their intention to end services on the line on July 21st. It seems that the company has decided to ignore the process they opted for themselves in April with the NTA and is now seek closure under the 1958 Transport Act.
After yesterday's charade in Dail Eirean what's left of their credibility is shot to bits!
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Unread 20-05-2010, 22:53   #17
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They are following the exact legal process.

To completely withdraw services requires a notice under section 19 of the act of 1958. To reduce the number of services on a route requires the permission of the NTA, if you reduce to 0, then the formal section 19 must be applied also.

The NTA's presence bought a 6 weeks delay, had the NTA not been there the line would be closing this month.
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Unread 21-05-2010, 08:25   #18
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Its offical now http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/...ew&news_id=765

Seems the NTA hasn't said yes or no
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Unread 23-05-2010, 01:37   #19
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Interesting:

First 370 dep used to go from Campile at 0730 and arrive Waterford City Centre 0835, now they are claiming they can leave Campile 0740 (starting from Fethard 0715) and make Waterford City 0830 - are they claiming the buses had padded timetables previously? It's obviously still longer than the 26 minutes the train takes between those points.

The main point is of course that the buses are not timetabled to serve the train station, so those who would prefer to use rail for at least some of their onward journey are being denied the opportunity. This demonstrates why IE should be clearly separated from the "sister company" and allowed to run buses in competition with Bus Eireann to maintain its catchments.
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Unread 23-05-2010, 01:53   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dowlingm View Post
Interesting:

First 370 dep used to go from Campile at 0730 and arrive Waterford City Centre 0835, now they are claiming they can leave Campile 0740 (starting from Fethard 0715) and make Waterford City 0830 - are they claiming the buses had padded timetables previously? It's obviously still longer than the 26 minutes the train takes between those points.
The Waterford Bypass may have changed things, with people heading north west and south west (via new bridge) of Waterford city using it. I'm not sure if people in the south east of the city are using it.

Quote:
The main point is of course that the buses are not timetabled to serve the train station, so those who would prefer to use rail for at least some of their onward journey are being denied the opportunity. This demonstrates why IE should be clearly separated from the "sister company" and allowed to run buses in competition with Bus Eireann to maintain its catchments.
What is needed is for the operating companies to do operations and the NTA to design services.
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