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Unread 04-02-2009, 09:13   #21
shweeney
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Originally Posted by essoII View Post
You cant just say that the tunnel is for Greystones commuters alone! You're forgetting the entire catchment of passengers south of Bray all the way along the Rosslare line. If this sort of disruption is going to continue at a stage where rock fall is happening annually, a feasibility study for a new route through or round Bray Head should be undertaken.
It's a very good point that the expert knowledge in tunneling soon to come from the dublin rail tunnel projects could vastly reduce the cost of carrying out tunneling work inbetween Bray and Greystones.
passenger numbers on the rosslare line are poor and lot of potential passengers get the bus instead as its cheaper, more frequent, and no slower than the train.

I'd be interested to know what percentage of passengers travelling the Bray-Greystones section are only going to\from Greystones - I'd say its pretty high. Of course if there was a more regular and faster service to Wicklow and Arklow the numbers might improve.
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Unread 04-02-2009, 14:58   #22
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Did a train make it through to Greystones?

Quote:

Real Time Train Information Results - 14:57

Northbound trains serving Lansdowne Rd in the next 60 minutes
Journey ETA Scheduled Platform Due In Current Location
Greystones to Howth 15:02 15:03 1 5 Mins Booterstown

Bray to Howth 15:17 15:16 1 20 Mins Glenageary

Bray to Malahide 15:28 15:28 1 31 Mins Bray

Greystones to Howth 15:42 15:42 1 45 Mins Greystones
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Unread 04-02-2009, 15:03   #23
Mark Gleeson
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Nope, Irish Rail are too lazy to update the computer system, it simply looks up the trains ID number and gets its start and destination from that
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Unread 04-02-2009, 15:10   #24
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Any proposal to rebuild the Rosslare line between Bray and Wicklow, in my eyes is fantasy in the current financial climate. We are effectively talking of a brand new double track formation, much along the lines of the proposals made in the 1900's. You can clearly see the old deviation on the link supplied by Mark. To do that to serve Greystones (10,000 people), and Wicklow (5,000) does not seem worth it for the limited return on expenditure.

Passenger numbers have improved over the last few years, but speeds are still pedestrian. Considering the very nature of the route, I think it is inevitable that it has a difficult future ahead. Its a pity really from a sentimental perspective. From a practical perspective, I reckon they will have to throw in the towel eventually.

Covering up the most vulnerable parts of the route with a protective shelter from rockfalls seems to be the cheapest and most practical alternative. Thats how its done in the likes of Switzerland and Canada. The coastal erosion problem is another matter, its unique as railways go in that regard.
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Unread 04-02-2009, 15:27   #25
Mark Gleeson
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And it continues

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Gorey & Rosslare rail disruption worsens due to landslip at Arklow; Bray-Greystones remains closed by Corporate Communications

UPDATE: 15.15hrs, 4th February 2009

Iarnród Éireann advises customers that disruption to Gorey Commuter and Rosslare Intercity services has worsened, due to a landslip at a rail embankment between Arklow and Gorey.

Along with the Bray to Greystones DART, these services had been disrupted since Monday as the line had been closed between Bray and Greystones due to rockfall close to the entrance of the first tunnel on Bray Head.

However, a landslip has now occurred at a rail line embankment south of Arklow, and as a result, Gorey commuter and Rosslare-Dublin Intercity rail services are suspended entirely on the line between Bray and Rosslare Europort.

DART

Bus transfers will operate between Bray and Greystones for all DART services from now until further notice. All other DART services will operate normally, from Howth/Malahide to Bray.

Gorey Commuter and Rosslare Intercity

Gorey commuter services and Rosslare Intercity will also be substituted by bus services from Bray to all stations between Greystones and Rosslare Europort. Full service details will be updated shortly.



Arklow-Gorey landslip

The landslip has occurred on a high embankment over which the rail line runs, just over 2 miles south of Arklow. As a result, remedial works will be undertaken, and it is estimated the line will remain closed until this Sunday, 8th February.

Bray-Greystones rockfall

A significant amount of rock has fallen near the entrance to the first tunnel on Bray Head. Support wire nets have been damaged, and the area remains high risk, with the potential for further falls from the cliff face.

A team of experts are assessing the situation, to ensure materials can be removed without dangers to workers involved, and to enable the line is made safe for the operation of trains as soon as possible.

However, given the hazards involved, it is expected that this section will remain closed for a number of weeks.

Iarnród Éireann apologises to customers for the inconvenience caused. Full service details will be updated at this website
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Unread 04-02-2009, 16:25   #26
shweeney
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aye "several weeks" for the Bray Head bit, sounds very bad.

Dermo - your population figures are a bit out of date - I agree though that it'll never be re-routed:

Greystones: 15k
Kilcoole: 3k
Wicklow: 10k
Rathdrum: 2k
Arklow: 12k
Gorey: 7k
Enniscorthy: 10k
Wexford: 18k

Total: 77k
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Unread 04-02-2009, 16:33   #27
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Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
Straightforward straight single track tunnel through a solid enough rock with no stations or funny bits, given the number of tunnel boring machines and trained people who will be standing around post metro/interconnector it wouldn't be half as expensive as you might think

Interconnector was 1.4-1.8 billion for 5.4km with 5 stations and twin tunnels, probably get change out of 300 million for Greystones job

It will have to happen sometime, its 92 years since the last major works on the line to deal with the problems
I reckon we can all think of better places to spend 300 million rather than a tunnel for the Rosslare line..
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Unread 04-02-2009, 16:40   #28
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Hmm, there is this project out west......

Easily could be no service to Greystones until March, maybe Easter just imagine the situation if NET was still in business in the current environment.

In recent years the number of incidents of closures on the route have increased massively. There will come a point

a) Close
b) Invest in a long term solution
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Unread 04-02-2009, 19:54   #29
Mark Hennessy
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If a long / medium term solution to this costs multiples tens of millions then we had better hope that the current economic condition doesn't deteriorate any further.

A full scale deviation involving a new tunnel is not a runner alas so unless these new remedial works solve the problem for another 5 years then there could be a problem.

For Greystones DART users and Gorey line commuters this is a complete nightmare

Are DART season tickets being accepted on DB services in the short term?
Are IE running their own buses in addition to regular DB services to help with deman?
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Unread 05-02-2009, 02:57   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Hennessy View Post
If a long / medium term solution to this costs multiples tens of millions then we had better hope that the current economic condition doesn't deteriorate any further.

A full scale deviation involving a new tunnel is not a runner alas so unless these new remedial works solve the problem for another 5 years then there could be a problem.

For Greystones DART users and Gorey line commuters this is a complete nightmare

Are DART season tickets being accepted on DB services in the short term?
Are IE running their own buses in addition to regular DB services to help with deman?
Shuttle buses are running accepting all rail tickets from stations south of Bray. Extra buses have been hired also to cope with huge amount of passengers needing to be shuttled to Bray. This situation has actually gotten from bad to apocalyptic! What a coincidence there's been another landslip on a seperate part of the line at Arklow. Imagine now there was another landslide between Killiney and Dalkey stations as happens occasionally..I think the situation is being well handled though, we're not waiting long for a shuttle bus in mornings/evenings. We're looking at a few weeks of this closure according to the irishrail.ie. Never been a time where a feasibility study for a new track section has been so urgently needed imo..really is a disaster for co.Wicklow commuters.
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Unread 05-02-2009, 21:31   #31
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Shuttle buses ceased to bring passengers to/from Greystones/Bray at around 5 earlier. Road (windgates hill road) between Bray and Greystones was impassable by road traffic *due to heavy snowfall*, a friend of mine ended up walking from Bray to Greystones (taking 1 and a half hours!). Its absolute chaos when the public transport system completely brakes down like this!
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Unread 05-02-2009, 21:40   #32
Mark Gleeson
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Obviously if the road is closed, its closed, but once again Irish Rail say nothing

Word in Dublin is many people have booked into hotels, to avoid the chaos of trying to get home and getting in tomorrow.
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Unread 05-02-2009, 23:47   #33
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I have a strange feeling of being stranded without the DART and possibilty of having no bus shuttle to Bray...no college for me in the morning then! i'm far too reliant on public transport, i'm taking up driving!
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Unread 06-02-2009, 23:15   #34
dowlingm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
imagine the situation if NET was still in business in the current environment
well in fairness though NET was crazy - transporting ammonia by rail through Cork and up and down the country. All this should do wonders for stock shortages though right?

The main problem as I see is the sharp turn eastwards the line makes leaving Bray and the large residential area south of it. That makes it difficult to bring inland without huge CPOs etc. Also it's hard to justify spending a ton of money unless the timetabling limitations of the existing line are helped by it.
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Unread 08-02-2009, 11:26   #35
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According to a staff member with whom I spoke yesterday, the problem south of Arklow will not be rectified and service reinstated between Gorey and Greystones until late this week.

The Irish Rail website expresses the hope that service will be restored sooner and hopefully, that is the correct version of how things stand.
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Unread 09-02-2009, 09:31   #36
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No better news by the looks of it!

Quote:
Gorey & Rosslare rail disruption continues due to landslip at Arklow; Bray-Greystones remains closed by Corporate Communications


UPDATE: 22.00hrs, 8th February 2009

Iarnród Éireann advises customers that disruption to Gorey Commuter and Rosslare Intercity services is continuing, due to a landslip at a rail embankment between Arklow and Gorey.

Along with the Bray to Greystones DART, these services had been disrupted since Monday 2nd February as the line had been closed between Bray and Greystones due to rockfall close to the entrance of the first tunnel on Bray Head.

However, a landslip occurred on Wednesday 4th February at a rail line embankment south of Arklow, and as a result, Gorey commuter and Rosslare-Dublin Intercity rail services are suspended entirely on the line between Bray and Gorey.

Service arrangements during disruption

DART

Bus transfers will operate between Bray and Greystones for all DART services from now until further notice. All other DART services will operate normally, from Howth/Malahide to Bray.

Gorey Commuter and Rosslare Intercity

Gorey commuter services will also be substituted by bus services from Bray to Gorey. Rosslare Intercity services will be substituted by bus services between Bray and Gorey.

Arklow-Gorey landslip

The landslip has occurred on a high embankment over which the rail line runs, just over 2 miles south of Arklow. As a result, remedial works are being undertaken, and it is now estimated the line will remain closed until at least Sunday, 15th February.

Bray-Greystones rockfall

A significant amount of rock has fallen near the entrance to the first tunnel on Bray Head. Support wire nets have been damaged, and the area remains high risk, with the potential for further falls from the cliff face.

A team of experts are assessing the situation, to ensure materials can be removed without dangers to workers involved, and to enable the line is made safe for the operation of trains as soon as possible.

However, given the hazards involved, it is expected that this section will remain closed for a number of weeks.

Iarnród Éireann apologises to customers for the inconvenience caused. Full service details will be updated at this website.

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Unread 09-02-2009, 22:40   #37
PLUMB LOCO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
Hmm, there is this project out west......

Easily could be no service to Greystones until March, maybe Easter just imagine the situation if NET was still in business in the current environment.

In recent years the number of incidents of closures on the route have increased massively. There will come a point

a) Close
b) Invest in a long term solution
As a long time user of the Connolly/Rosslare Harbour line I have become use to breakdowns, crap rolling stock etc. but never a problem with rockfalls - I am intrigued by your reference to the massive increase of closures. Can you be a bit more specific?
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Unread 10-02-2009, 14:57   #38
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one of the things that I noticed on the sign I saw at tara street yesterday was there were bus transfers at times it was asking people to get the 84/184 to bray/greystones particulary after morning and at weekends.

Also saying at those times rail passes would be accepted on dublin bus.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 09:54   #39
Mark Gleeson
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Good history of problemsThere was a incident on a Sunday afternoon in recent years where a train had to make an emergency stop due to rock fall as well not in that list, there are many other incidents obviously the list is not exhaustive. Most are minor rockfalls close to the railway and cause no real harm. Won't go into the closures during the DASH project and at night to deal with the tunnels. For 5 miles it sure clocks up the faults despite having only a fraction of the number of trains

There is a rockfall problem
There is serious coastal erosion
The exposed cliff alignment results in a high number of OHLE problems
The tunnels have other problems

A very large amount of money has been spent trying to hold back natures natural course. The risk assessment on the route seems to have mandated that derailment containment be provided continuously on the cliff and tunnel sections to ensure if a train did hit a rock fall chances where it would be prevented from fully leaving the track, I don't know of anywhere else similarly treated over such a length. Bray head is a geotechnical nightmare, its one of the most exposed to the elements places you are going to find and it has presented a massive ongoing challenge to engineers, it beat Brunel all those years ago.

Someone does need to get a thinking cap on and look long term as to how to deal with the inevitable. Digging the debris out and trying to bolt the rockface together is only buying time, 10 years? 20 years? 50 years? who knows. And we all can agree the reliability of Greystones services isn't great

A week on no clear statement on the duration of the closure, it wouldn't hurt for IE to post a photo to show the scale of the problem it would buy a little bit of understanding. It takes 15-20 minutes by bus so a revised timetable should be published to clarify the actual service from Greystones, in fact anyone with a weekly or monthly rail ticket should be allowed use the 184 and 84 buses as well for free. That would be what a customer focused operator would do, Irish Rail well we can dream
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Unread 11-02-2009, 15:35   #40
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There's a photo of the fall in this weeks edition of The Wicklow Times. Cant upload it though. It shows two councellors from Wicklow co.co. standing next to the fall..It looks to me to be very small, literally like a few wheel barrow loads of rubble at the bottom of one of those safety nets. Honestly cant see how something seemingly so small and insignificant is causing the line to be closed indefinatly. Even the councellors think irishrail are not doing enough to solve the problem. No shuttle buses run between Bray and Greystones during offpeak times which i think is ridiculous. I own a monthly rail ticket and am having to pay for the 84/184 at these times. This is also the time many school children travelling to Greystones are waiting for buses, also having to pay...it really is a joke at this stage..
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