Submission to the NTA about Waterford-Rosslare?

[sean]

Hi everyone, I'm not on Facebook so I can't join the save the Rosslare Railway FB group, but I just read this post on boards
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=430
and am tempted to jump in and make an emailed submission to the NTA about the proposed closure.

I have read that the 25 people who use the railway each day, do so in spite of IEs best efforts. Obviously I wouldn't put such accusations in a submission, but it does lead me to conclude that the whole thing stinks to hell.

Therefore, I'm looking for advice on what sort of submission I should make? How I should word it etc. (bear in mind I'm not personally familiar with the line at all).

A few questions:

1. What, at a fundamental level, makes the line worth trying to save?
2. How is Irish Rails mal-administration of the line limiting its potential?
3. What opportunities and social benefits could a properly run line offer?
4. If the line is saved, what (realistically) should happen next?

[Mark Gleeson]

Deadline past yesterday at 5pm as far as I know

The NTA has confirmed receipt of the RUI submission

While some people are getting very excited about the fact IE don't own the route, it doesn't actually make any difference

[ThomasJ]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Deadline past yesterday at 5pm as far as I know

The NTA has confirmed receipt of the RUI submission

While some people are getting very excited about the fact IE don't own the route, it doesn't actually make any difference

so how about asking the people who actually own the line to get someone else to run the service ?

[Mark Gleeson]

The only company authorised under EU law to carry passengers on scheduled services in Ireland is IE, NIR can also provided the train crosses the border. The RPSI do not have a license to run, IE/NIR run the trains for them.

Lots of people have gone looking for something that is not there with the whole Fishguard and Rosslare company, IE are fully liable for all losses and gains on the Irish side. The company is not trading and doesn't seem to exist bar a complex set of shareholder capital management processes

The accounts state

By virtue of Agreements dated 27 May 1898 and 14 February 1903, scheduled to the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Acts 1899 and 1903 respectively, the Company's undertaking on the English side is managed by Stena Line Ports Limited as regards Fishguard Harbour and by Stena Line Limited as regards the shipping service between Fishguard and Rosslare; the undertaking on the Irish side is managed by Iarnrod Eireann (Irish Rail). The managing companies are entitled to the receipts and responsible for any losses of the parts of the undertaking under their respective management, and such receipts and losses are not reflected in these accounts. Payment of dividends on the Preference Stock (other than that on which the right to dividend has been irrevocably waived by the holders thereof) is guaranteed by Coras Iompair Eireann and the British Railways Board.

The whole of the Company's ordinary capital is held by Stena Line Ports Limited and Iarnrod Eireann, from which companies the Directors are appointed. The emoluments of the Directors are paid by their respective appointing companies, and are not borne by the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company. Because the Company is not trading, the main responsibility of the Directors is to maintain and service the Company's capital. These accounts relate to their discharge of that responsibility.

[PLUMB LOCO]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The only company authorised under EU law to carry passengers on scheduled services in Ireland is IE, NIR can also provided the train crosses the border. The RPSI do not have a license to run, IE/NIR run the trains for them.

Lots of people have gone looking for something that is not there with the whole Fishguard and Rosslare company, IE are fully liable for all losses and gains on the Irish side. The company is not trading and doesn't seem to exist bar a complex set of shareholder capital management processes

I spoke to someone in the NTA today and he confirmed that while they are NOT seeking submissions they are happy to receive them and there is NO deadline. Might I ask where you got the account information for the FRRHCo? Until someone convinces me otherwise I will remain in the belief that the FRRHCo is the achilles heel in CIE's campaign to close the line. Incidentally, how come a dismissed director of IE - Keenan - is still on the board of the FRRHCo on behalf of CIE/IE?

[Mark Gleeson]

There is a deadline since the NTA must reply to IE within a set number of weeks from there request, that was yesterday as that was 10 working days from the request IE made for a variance on the contract, as per section 4.3 of the contract NTA - IE

Sure that deadline can be waived if both parties agree, now do you honestly think IE will agree to drag it out? Regardless there is no legal obligation to even consider the submissions. The DoT naturally gave IE an exemption from EC1371/2007 which would have legally required RUI and certain others to be consulted under EU law (The nice people in the European Rail Agency in Brussels recognise us)

The F&RHRco is a shell company, the only point we have a shot at is if IE start to lift the line at which point they are impacting on the assets held by the company, IE have indicated over and over again there are no plans to lift or sell off

The Transport Act does not prohibit IE from withdrawing services, a line closure is a different issue. There is some historical precedents with the F&RHRco which support this view, full details are awaited. The NTA can of course refuse the variance on the contract.

That quote is from the accounts of 2003 I think

Mr Kennan is still an paid employee of Irish Rail, he has not been dismissed

[Mark Gleeson]

Its offical now http://www.irishrail.ie/news_centre/...ew&news_id=765

Seems the NTA hasn't said yes or no

[dowlingm]

Interesting:

First 370 dep used to go from Campile at 0730 and arrive Waterford City Centre 0835, now they are claiming they can leave Campile 0740 (starting from Fethard 0715) and make Waterford City 0830 - are they claiming the buses had padded timetables previously? It's obviously still longer than the 26 minutes the train takes between those points.

The main point is of course that the buses are not timetabled to serve the train station, so those who would prefer to use rail for at least some of their onward journey are being denied the opportunity. This demonstrates why IE should be clearly separated from the "sister company" and allowed to run buses in competition with Bus Eireann to maintain its catchments.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

Interesting:

First 370 dep used to go from Campile at 0730 and arrive Waterford City Centre 0835, now they are claiming they can leave Campile 0740 (starting from Fethard 0715) and make Waterford City 0830 - are they claiming the buses had padded timetables previously? It's obviously still longer than the 26 minutes the train takes between those points.

The Waterford Bypass may have changed things, with people heading north west and south west (via new bridge) of Waterford city using it. I'm not sure if people in the south east of the city are using it.

The main point is of course that the buses are not timetabled to serve the train station, so those who would prefer to use rail for at least some of their onward journey are being denied the opportunity. This demonstrates why IE should be clearly separated from the "sister company" and allowed to run buses in competition with Bus Eireann to maintain its catchments.

What is needed is for the operating companies to do operations and the NTA to design services.

[JamesK]

Assuming that the closure goes ahead and that the proposed replacement bus services are put in place, it will be interesting to see whether at a later date, at least some of the latter are quietly withdrawn.

[ccos]

The only Green party politician who has responded to my letters protesting IE´s announcement

Ciaran,

I was flabbergasted myself at the thought of the Wexford to Rosslare being axed.

I presume you refer to yesterdays announcement of the closure of the Waterford to Rosslare Harbour rail line.

Ciaran, the Green Party has 2 Ministers at the Cabinet table, neither of them with a Transport brief.

Just think of how much policy you could pass in a committee with those type of numbers.

The tragedy has been happening for many years when the electorate returned, election after election,

some of the most inept politicians this country has ever seen. The Green Party condemned decisions

made by these crooks and since taking office has punched well above their weight bringing some

of the most visionary planning, energy and building legislation this country has ever seen.

I personally have lobbied our own Ministers, Irish Rail and the NTA on the Waterford Line issue.

What have you done ?

Is mise,

Danny Forde
087 6884032

[Colm Moore]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...274035308.html

Rosslare-Waterford rail service to end
MICHAEL PARSONS

IRISH RAIL has announced that it will “suspend” its Rosslare to Waterford service on July 21st. Local people believe it will never actually resume.
The State-owned subsidiary of CIÉ has blamed a steep fall in passenger numbers and said the line is no longer economically viable.

The service has been operating just once daily – in each direction – with no Sunday service.

A morning train departs from Rosslare Europort at 7am and wends through south Co Wexford with stops at the villages of Bridgetown, Wellington Bridge, Ballycullane and Campile before arriving at Waterford’s Plunkett Station at 8.20am. The return journey leaves Waterford at 5.20pm and terminates at 6.35pm.

Passengers about to board the train at Waterford last Thursday evening had mixed views about the line’s closure.

Richard Miskella (74) said “it’s a real pity but if it’s not paying they can’t run a train” and he’d be “happy enough if it’s replaced with a good bus service”.

Barry Kehoe (44) lives in Co Westmeath but was holidaying in his native Wexford and was taking his children, Amy (4) and Oisín (18 months), to Wellington Bridge where they were being collected by car. He had heard about the line’s closure and was embarking on the short journey “for nostalgic reasons”.

As the 100-seat train pulled away from the platform, there were only 17 passengers on board.

According to Irish Rail, the service has “experienced very low patronage for many years” with the train carrying on average “approximately 25 passengers”.

The company also pointed out that the sugar beet freight business, “which sustained the viability of the line”, ceased in 2006 following the demise of sugar manufacturing in Ireland.

The line also suffered from a decline in the number of foot passengers arriving on ferries at Rosslare.

The service cost €4 million a year to operate but generated only about €40,000 from ticket sales. The closure will result in some 30 job losses – among them keepers who operated a network of manned crossings – but there will be “no forced redundancies”. Meanwhile, the company plans to launch a replacement bus service on the route to be operated by Bus Éireann which will terminate at Waterford Institute of Technology – to the advantage of students who had been using the rail service but had then to make their own way to the campus some two miles away.

Irish Rail officials said that new legislation meant that the tracks on the Rosslare-Waterford line “can’t be torn up for at least 10 years” in case there is a change of heart.

The company would also “explore the possibility of establishing a heritage railway on the route with interested parties, which would be of benefit to tourism in the area”.

Officially, the rail service cannot be halted until Irish Rail receives formal approval from the National Transport Authority, a new body established last year by the Minister for Transport with “responsibility for securing the provision of public passenger land transport services”.

A spokeswoman said the authority would make its decision after considering correspondence from interested parties – despite there being “no provision for public consultation under the 2009 Public Transport Act”. The authority is expecting to receive a submission “by July 16th” from the South-East Regional Authority.

This Clonmel-based organisation, which describes itself “as a regional tier of government in Ireland” and “to the forefront in identifying, articulating and addressing the deficiencies, development needs and investment priorities of the region” has hired “a consortium of consultants” including “one from the UK” to prepare its submission. A spokesman said the consultants would be paid €26,000 which represented “good value”.

A request from The Irish Times to discuss the closure of the railway with the Green Party’s Minister of State with special responsibility for sustainable transport was declined. His office said: “Minister Ciarán Cuffe is not available for interview on the issue and he would like to give the following comment: ‘The proposed suspension of services on the Rosslare-Waterford rail line is an operational matter for CIÉ in conjunction with the National Transport Authority’.”

BACK ON TRACK MIDLETON TO CORK REOPENED LAST YEAR: LAST JULY Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey presided over the reopening of the Midleton to Cork railway line which had been closed 46 years earlier.

The restoration of the service, originally launched in the mid- 19th century, cost €75 million and was funded by the Government’s Transport 21 initiative.

The Minister told the assembled guests that “for over a century, Midleton station served the needs of the people of the area” but that “in time, like so many other local stations, it fell victim to economic change and, perhaps also, to what was then our growing national infatuation with the private car”.

However, “our economy began to grow, and we began to appreciate the need for greater public transport, both to improve the competitiveness of Ireland in attracting investment and to protect and preserve our environment”.

[dowlingm]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

The Waterford Bypass may have changed things, with people heading north west and south west (via new bridge) of Waterford city using it. I'm not sure if people in the south east of the city are using it.

I had the same thought, but that improvement for 370 customers should not have required the shutdown of the South Wexford.

What is needed is for the operating companies to do operations and the NTA to design services.

The NTA has been used by CIE in this matter, and CIE have bypassed them when they did not provide the expedited closure they wanted. If the NTA wants to be relevant into the future they should request that the Minister halt CIE's application under the 1958 Act and return to the NTA process.

The price of the withdrawal of the south Wexford and the transfer of that catchment to BE should be the use of that set for a Waterford inward commuter service either from Clonmel/Carrick-on-Suir (combined population not far short of Ennis/Sixmilebridge) or from Carlow, and sending that 2700 north again thereafter to Carlow to split the 3h20m gap between 0740 and 1100 northbound departures.

[Mark Gleeson]

Let us be clear here about the process

The board of CIE can close any line they wish if it is not economically viable, basically the entire network

The minister has no power to over rule the board

If any member of the CIE group reduces its service level on any route without first obtaining the authorisation of the NTA is liable to be hit with a significant fine

The public service grant is a block grant and is applied on a network basis, so there is no way of knowing how much is allocated to any one service.


Anyone who has read the closure notice carefully should by now have noticed that it can be legally challenged as it contains several glaring mistakes. Basically the line will remain open beyond July 21st as the notice will have to be reissued.

[ccos]

Wow these guys have cabinet seats but rail services get a speech in the seanad

I note your concerns with regard to the closure of the Rosslare to Waterford Railway.

I equally share your concerns and raised this issue in the Seanad in April.

Please find below an extract from my Seanad Speech which might be of interest to you.

"Keep Rosslare to Waterford Rail Service open - O Brolchain

The western rail corridor has completely exceeded expectations and is an enormous success.
However, no sooner has this service been put in place than the abolition of the service from Rosslare to Waterford has been proposed, which is an absolutely retrograde step. I urge the Ministers to think carefully about this and to consider the possibility of the timing of the service, as opposed to simply stating the service is not working and proposing to get rid of it. One must suit people and travel is all about what people want and about providing a service that is usable by them."

With kind regards,

Niall


Senator Niall O Brolchain
52 Lower Salthill, Galway
Ph Galway: 091-583643
Ph Dublin: 01 6183628
Email: niallob@oireachtas.ie

[Alan French]

If I remember right from reading the Transport Acts, the Dáil has the right to overrule a closure. I think they did that with the Loughrea branch when closure was proposed in 1963. I know it closed 12 years later, but it made a difference at the time. If we could get the Greens to vote with the opposition, the closure could be voted out.

I think the closure of four stations between Dublin and Dun Laoghaire in 1960 was delayed because of the legal notice not having the right information, somewhat like what is happening now. All these stations were re-opened over the period 1972-1984.

Some years ago I asked for some legal opinion about closures. I was told that this kind of act tends to give wide powers of discretion. So it's difficult to catch them out on words like "if in the opinion of the Board the service is uneconomical and unlikely to be economical for a reasonable period". But it was suggested that the whole Act could be unconstitutional because it contravenes normal justice by not allowing the principle of audi alteram parte, hear the other side. Have you any ideas on this?

In general, because the damage caused by closures is spread over the economy rather than certain individuals suffering, there have been few cases chalenging the act. But the first question should be, not who can afford to take a case, but whether the case stands. Even a threat of a case could put pressure in the right places.

[lika]

Originally Posted by sean

Hi everyone, I'm not on Facebook so I can't join the save the Rosslare Railway FB group, but I just read this post on boards
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=430
and am tempted to jump in and make an emailed submission to the NTA about the proposed closure.

I have read that the 25 people who use the railway each day, do so in spite of IEs best efforts. Obviously I wouldn't put such accusations in a submission, but it does lead me to conclude that the whole thing stinks to hell.

Therefore, I'm looking for advice on what sort of submission I should make? How I should word it etc. (bear in mind I'm not personally familiar with the line at all).

A few questions:

1. What, at a fundamental level, makes the line worth trying to save?
2. How is Irish Rails mal-administration of the line limiting its potential?
3. What opportunities and social benefits could a properly run line offer?
4. If the line is saved, what (realistically) should happen next?

WE HAVE A WEB PAGE www.savetherail.org if you are interested in joining it

[Mark Hennessy]

Looks like IE are going to act unilaterally before the NTA have decided....

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0718/rail.html

So if they can get away with this, the purpose of another quango, the NTA is what exactly?

[Mark Gleeson]

That was recorded last Saturday the 10th, usual lazy journalism and editing.

Services will continue for some time. Notices stating this are posted at the stations, was in Bridgetown yesterday amongst others.