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#61 | |
Technical Officer
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
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#62 |
Technical Officer
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
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![]() The plot thickens, now three private operators in the fray showing an interesting in running the route.
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#63 |
Regular Poster
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 47
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![]() im sure several concerns would like a toe in the door of irish rail operations....their sucess would have profound repercussions for IE surely. More power to them!
I was saddened to see the Red Herring of linking Rosslare operations to the WRC.. If a through service were the best option, Cork would be a better option with decent connections to Limerick at the Junction.(BTW you cant have an indefinate delay...tortology...) |
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#64 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 89
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![]() It's not a red herring. I've no objection to the idea of through services between Rosslare and Cork (as there were until 1973). But the idea of running through services between Rosslare and Galway comes as a consequence of trying to give each part of this line a decent service - preferably every two hours.
Look at it this way. A train arrives at Limerick Junction from Waterford or Rosslare, and another train of the same type and length arrives from Limerick or Galway. Each feeds passengers into trains going both ways on the Dublin-Cork line. Then each returns where it came from. But if instead each of these trains were to continue "straight ahead" instead of turning back, it would give an improved service at no extra cost, by eliminating a change for passengers going Waterford-Limerick or beyond. Even if few people want to go from Rosslare to Galway, passengers from Tipperary to Limerick will certainly be more encouraged to travel if there is no change at the Junction. So it's a consequence of trying to give each part of the line a decent service - that's where we start. Now, if it turns out that there are enough passengers for Cork (or the Kerry direction), then a through run may be justified. This means an extra run by a railcar on the Limerick Junction-Cork section. But we are talking about running several trains per day, so it is possible to send some trains to Cork and others to Galway. Is it mainly the boat trains that you have in mind, or some other time of day? |
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#65 |
Regular Poster
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 47
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![]() Its a Red Herring (oh no,this is gettin zooologiogal...) because the WRC is a White Elephant and would not help the case of the Rosslare line to be lumped in with it.
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#66 |
Really Regular Poster
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Cork-Dublin, Cork Commuter and occasionally DART and Dublin-Wexford
Posts: 855
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![]() If you linked Rosslare to Cork and you brought the Rosslare-Limerick Junction line up to the standard of the Cork-Dublin line and you only stopped 3 or 4 times (which sort of defeats the purpose of providing service on it), it would still take over three hours. The investment required to get it to that level would be pretty huge as well.
The major diversion means rail could never really compete with the bus. At least a Rosslare-Waterford-Limerick-Galway service is rougly in a straight line. |
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#67 |
Regular Poster
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 47
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![]() but the Limerick to Galway bit is fatally flawed in that it has had a lot of cash invested in it (and surely isnt likely to get more one hopes!) but is slower than the road (by a lot) and dearer than the Bus.(by a lot). I cant see a private operator wanting to take on this bit whereas a reliable and sensible service to and from a Ferry Port served by 2 services to Wales and one to France ( I think ) might have a hope of improvement. It really would make a nice self-contained package for an operator if the Dublin and Waterford services were included (OK if you insist,extended to Limerick Junc to connect to Cork na d Limerick/Galway)
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#68 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ar an traein
Posts: 600
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![]() Hi, yes one main route to Cherbourg year-round (served by both Irish Ferries and Celtic Link) plus seasonal route to Roscoff (Irish Ferries).
Last edited by Traincustomer : 09-08-2010 at 16:32. Reason: addition |
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#69 |
Local Liaison Officer
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,442
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![]() Well you can either pay a large subsidy to an inefficient operator or a smaller subsidy to an efficient operator.
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#70 |
Regular Poster
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 47
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#71 |
Chairman/Publicity
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: The Home of Hurling
Posts: 2,708
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![]() bet IE never saw that coming as a result of all this. Did the Departments of Finance and Transport though, that's a more interesting question. Oddly enough, back when we used to debate privatisation nobody ever mentioned this line being a rich pickings. Just takes some outside perspective....
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#72 |
Really Really Regluar Poster
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1,371
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#73 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 89
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![]() Replying to Comcor and Corktina (#63-67), time will tell.
Some of us have looked hard at the practicalities of providing a decent timetable for every route (see "Timetable consultation"). Any train arriving at Limerick Junction from the Waterford direction would have a connection shortly afterwards to Cork by an existing Dublin-Cork train. When that happens, we will get some idea of how many people actually make that connection. If a reasonable number of passengers do make it (whether internal or cross-channel), then it will be worth providing a through train, regardless of what anyone else has predicted. If the number is small, then the connection will still be there for those who want it. This would still be true if the WRC had never re-opened. Members' views differ on the WRC, and there is no need to knock that service to make a case for a Rosslare-Cork train. The train journey from Rosslare to Cork is at a disadvantage because of its roundabout route, but that doesn't always mean it is completely doomed to failure. In this case, once a good timetable is in place on the Limerick Junction -Waterford line, we will find out at no extra cost what the demand is like for the Cork direction. A number of people in these columns seem to have fallen for the idea that once a bus or a car can do a journey more quickly than a train, the that railway is doomed to total failure. Some in the media think that way too. In fact, all sorts of services that people said wouldn't work, have worked. A useful statistic would be - if anyone can find it - did the Rosslare-Cork route lose many passengers in 1967 when the trains were diverted via Limerick Junction? It continued to be a through service for a further six years. |
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#74 | |
Local Liaison Officer
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,442
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However, part of the problem at hand is that the convenience and overall value of a service to the passenger is overlooked in planning that service. So we have Craughwell with 10 services per day, when it might have been better to provide Oranmore with 28 services per day for almost identical costs (the only cost would be the extra fuel and wear & tear in braking and accelerating). It would require the exact same number of trains and staff and the same construction costs. However, fare income would be much more substantial Likewise, in south Wexford, there are a dozen or so level crossing gate keepers (and all sorts or permanent way staff) who serve a total of 2 trains a day. The marginal cost of providing a much increased service is slight - its just driver and train time. Now, if Galway-Limerick, Limerick-Limerick Junction, Limerick Junction-Waterford and Waterford-Rosslare Harbour/Wexford services were operated in such a fashion that resources could be used a bit more efficiently, e.g. reducing the lay-over times mid-route, that would be a gain. Offering a more frequent and faster service would be a further gain, increasing fare income. However, Irish Rail don't seem to be capable of these improvements. Other operators do seem to be capable. If the operation of a route or routes was put out to tender and Irish Rail say they will do it for X and another operator say they will do the same or better service for X-Y, then surely we should go for the other operator. Of course, given that the other operator might have overhead costs spread over a small operation might mitigate against this and they might be more expensive.
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#75 | |
Regular Poster
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 47
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I didnt knock the WRC to make a case for anything,. I was urging that it was not included with the Rosslare line as a through service, for the reasons stated. |
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#76 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 136
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![]() In reply to Alan French.
From memory, the Waterford to Mallow line was a thrice weekly service, running twice daily (Rosslare to Cork Express) in Winter, and Daily in Summer, morning and evening. It was a limited Stop service, stopping only at Waterford, Dungarvan, Lismore, Fermoy. There was a once daily stopping service at all stations. It was another route that had all the classic "rundown" to closure applied to it, by both the Great Southern and CIE. It did not integrate with the Dublin services at either end, so the connections were inconvenient. No attempt was made to maximise usage. Also, often forgotten was that the line from Waterford to Dungarvan on to Mallow was festooned with speed restrictions, level crossings, steep gradients, tight curves, despite an effective speed limit of 60mph, for all intensive purposes, average speeds were closer on 25mph end to end. It was the hardest of all the mainlines to operate, and fixed expenditure was always very high. The track was not superelevated either. If Rosslare to Waterford is to survive, then onward connections are crucial. These seem to have always been badly catered for. |
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#77 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 89
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![]() Thanks, Dermo88.
In 1972 I gave a talk to the Engineering Society in Trinity College about train timetables, and I referred to the old line via Dungarvan (closed only 5 years earlier) as a prime example of how a line could fail because of a bad timetable - a point that consultants always failed to notice. The history of that period shows some parallels with today's issues. The Rosslare-Cork express, as you say, ran three days a week from October to March (approx), because that was when the ships sailed. For the other six months this was increased to six days a week, and in July and August, a second train ran to connect with a second sailing. These trains stopped at the stations you have listed, plus three others. Connections for the Limerick direction were sporadic. There were several smaller stations; these were served by the 07.15 Rosslare-Cork, which arrived with not much time to spare before it returned about 13.30, serving Waterford at 17.45. So the small stations didn't get a decent day return service to Cork. So, apart from this one stopping train, all eggs were in one basket - the ferry connections. No attempt was made to develop a Waterford-Cork inter-city service (which could have been done with no extra resources). For ten months of the year, someone living in Dungarvan couldn't make a day return trip to Waterford. After the closure in 1967, the express trains were diverted via Limerick Junction, still about the same times. One other train per day ran Limerick-Waterford and back. The stopping train survived east of Waterford, to become the present Rosslare-Waterford commuter service. 1973 was a good year for timetable improvements generally. On the Limerick Junction-Waterford section, the service became twice a day, and now it catered much better for internal journeys, while still providing reasonable connections with ships. This what we are aiming to do now. Trains ran to/from Limerick now instead of Cork, but I don't regard this as too serious, because there were connections for Cork, and the journey time was only slightly longer. At least day return trips were now possible to Limerck or Waterford, which was an improvement! For the first year, the Limerick-Waterford trains actually had a basic catering service on those days that they were boat trains. In 1975 the rot set in, when they cancelled the morning train between Limerick Junction and Waterford for most of the year. Now the 07.10 from Rosslare (which carried commuters and ferry passengers) terminated at Waterford, with no onward connection. The loss of day return opportunities made sure that the remaining trains would now carry less passengers. And so it remained for 28 more years. So, like today, there were periods when some imagination was used in planning timetables, and periods when none at all was used. |
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#78 | |
New to the board
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 19
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See Cork Light Rail proposal at www.alacroart.com |
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