Rail Users Ireland Forum

Go Back   Rail Users Ireland Forum > Irish Rail Customer Service Issues > Commuter Services
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Unread 01-12-2015, 11:15   #41
OisinDunne
New to the board
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Bettystown
Posts: 12
Default

Off peak on Northern line, why not run 4 carriages to link with Malahide arriving 5 mins before a dart and return north 5 mins after dart arrival. Surly no real need to run all the way to city centre if (big if) it will increase services.

16:29 ex Balbriggan to Drogheda is gone. Only options for school kids now is 16:07 (when school finishes at 16:00) or wait until 17:07.

Asking my 13 year old to wait for over an hour.....don't think so IR. Will make arrangements with private bus transfers if this timetable goes in.

Changes to services on the Northern line are never looked at with the big picture view.
OisinDunne is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-12-2015, 16:43   #42
Inniskeen
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 951
Default

I had wondered about schools, Irish Rail have fallen into this trap time and again over the years at Balbriggan. As for trains turning back northwards at Malahide, the infrastructure at Malahide wouldn't really support such an arrangement.
Inniskeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-12-2015, 23:04   #43
Dublin13
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 130
Default

As someone who commutes between Clongriffin and Clontarf I'm delighted that they are finally doing something about the ridiculous timetable and awful split between the Howth and Malahide branch in evening peak which is dreadful and in no way reflects actual passenger numbers.

From Clontarf you have the crazy current timetable and loadings.

17:32 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
17:43 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
17:51 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 75% of seats available after Howth Junction.

17:58 to Malahide - 4 Car Jam Packed train like Sardines, Sometimes unable to even board and still is like sardines until Clongriffin.

18:13 to Howth - Some Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
18:31 to Howth - Some Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.

18:46 to Malahide - 4 Car Jam Packed train like Sardines, Sometimes unable to even board and still is like sardines until Clongriffin.

It's absolutely ridiculous that it is allowed to go on, a few times the 17:58 has been delayed in the last year due to passengers pulling the emergency alarm because of the over-crowding and I believe someone fainted in the summer. It's little wonder the 18:46 is awfully overcrowded considering the fact there is a 48 MINUTE GAP in evening peak time services.

This leads to the farcical situation where I and a number of other passengers are now getting Howth trains and then waiting at Howth Junction for a Malahide train, in the knowledge that we might actually be able to get on there with this not being certain earlier on in the trains journey and not wanting to wait 48 minutes for the next one.

The fact that after Howth Junction on the Howth Trains you have quite a few people leaving the trains with the Howth trains then being pretty empty whereas the Malahide ones are absolutely jammed at that point with yet more people boarding at Howth Junction who took the 'safe' option of the Howth train rather than risk getting left behind and being stuck for 48 minutes, illustrates it perfectly.

There's also a 90 minute gap on Saturday morning between Malahide DART's which I'm glad the are finally getting rid of.
Dublin13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 01-12-2015, 23:04   #44
Dublin13
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 130
Default

On the topic of the Malahide branch, which is clearly the poor cousin of the Howth dart in the current timetable....

As someone who commutes between Clongriffin and Clontarf I'm delighted that they are finally doing something about the ridiculous timetable and awful split between the Howth and Malahide branch in evening peak which is dreadful and in no way reflects actual passenger numbers.

From Clontarf you have the crazy current timetable and loadings.

17:32 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
17:43 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
17:51 to Howth - Plenty of Seats Available. 75% of seats available after Howth Junction.

17:58 to Malahide - 4 Car Jam Packed train like Sardines, Sometimes unable to even board and still is like sardines until Clongriffin.

18:13 to Howth - Some Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.
18:31 to Howth - Some Seats Available. 50% of seats available after Howth Junction.

18:46 to Malahide - 4 Car Jam Packed train like Sardines, Sometimes unable to even board and still is like sardines until Clongriffin.

It's absolutely ridiculous that it is allowed to go on, a few times the 17:58 has been delayed in the last year due to passengers pulling the emergency alarm because of the over-crowding and I believe someone fainted in the summer. It's little wonder the 18:46 is awfully overcrowded considering the fact there is a 48 MINUTE GAP in evening peak time services.

This leads to the farcical situation where I and a number of other passengers are now getting Howth trains and then waiting at Howth Junction for a Malahide train, in the knowledge that we might actually be able to get on there with this not being certain earlier on in the trains journey and not wanting to wait 48 minutes for the next one.

The fact that after Howth Junction on the Howth Trains you have quite a few people leaving the trains with the Howth trains then being pretty empty whereas the Malahide ones are absolutely jammed at that point with yet more people boarding at Howth Junction who took the 'safe' option of the Howth train rather than risk getting left behind and being stuck for 48 minutes, illustrates it perfectly.

There's also a 90 minute gap on Saturday morning between Malahide DART's which I'm glad the are finally getting rid of.
Dublin13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-12-2015, 08:03   #45
Inniskeen
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 951
Default

Yes this is a good aspect to the timetable although I suspect that the 4-car trains will still be a feature of the rush hour. Nonetheless the infrastructure is not configured to support the pattern of operation in the new timetable and increased delays and congestion are probably inevitable.
Inniskeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 02-12-2015, 18:10   #46
Dublin13
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 130
Default

The 4 car trains I don't think would be such a big problem on the proposed new timetable, at least for the trains that I get

The overcrowding is due to a combination of the pathetic timetable and awful balance between Howth and Malahide, and the shorter trains.

Between 5.32pm and 6.31pm for instance there are FIVE Howth trains meanwhile there are just two Malahide Trains between 5.30pm and 7.00pm.

If the trains are more frequent or they lengthen them, you'd still have busy trains, but at least they won't be like sardines.

Of course people on Howth branch will moan, but quite frankly that side of things is VASTLY over-served right now as the passenger numbers on those trains show.

Last week I took a train to Howth which ran about 6 minutes ahead of a Malahide one, got off at Howth Junction and there was about 8 people left on my carriage and not many more on the others.

I walk over the bridge at Howth Junction to the Malahide service, and can barely find somewhere to stand in reach of a grab rail. The difference in loading is that extreme.

Last edited by Dublin13 : 02-12-2015 at 18:13.
Dublin13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 00:41   #47
berneyarms
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 595
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inniskeen View Post
While I am an Enterprise user, I also use DART and commuter services, the latter two more frequently than the Enterprise. Indeed a lot of my use of the Enterprise is to avoid the depressingly slow commuter trains which like the Enterprise have been subjected to significant cumulative journey time increases over successive timetable iterations.

At almost any time of the day, I can drive from my house to the city centre in about the same time as the Enterprise would currently take. In the morning I can leave home, by car, 15 to 20 minutes behind a commuter service and arrive in Sydney Parade at least 10 minutes before it shows up. So even point to point journey times are uncompetitive, let alone those that involve a change of train or change of mode. Add to that the significant delays that occur to morning or evening services multiple times a week and you have an offering which is of diminishing appeal especially to longer distance commuters. If you drive up the M1 at almost any time of the day it is buzzing and clearly the railway has lost very significant market share not just to motorists but also to express bus operators.

As for the proposed timetable, it is a credit to the architect in that a considerable effort has been made to produce something that might just be operationally deliverable. The poor signalling and track layout at Malahide, contention at Howth Junction, the lack of an up loop at Clongriffin and even tighter working between Bray and Greystones may well conspire to produce a significantly poorer operating performance than at present. There may well be six DARTs an hour but they will probably turn up in bunches. Alternatively Greystones passengers may find there train held in Bray to take up the path of the following service.

You suggest that this new timetable is effectively an attempt to reverse the long term decline in DART usage. It may do that to some modest degree although I suspect that any gains will be offset by a decline in the usage of other services which, with a few exceptions, have been significantly downgraded.

The issue brought into stark focus by this proposed timetable essentially boils down to whether it makes more sense to impose a journey time penalty of anything up to 20 minutes for passengers travelling to/from stations north of Malahide to facilitate a disproportionate number of comparatively lightly used off peak DARTs. North of Connolly DART accounts for something close to 55% of passengers during the course of a normal working day but already gobbles up 66% of the operating slots. Under this proposal at least 75% of northern line slots will be taken by DART.

The hopelessly uncompetitive journey times to stations south of Greystones means that this line will struggle to maintain even marginal relevance in the medium to long term. The minimal usage figures for stations like Wicklow, Arklow, Gorey and Enniscorthy set out in the 2014 NTA census are stark and depressing . The near empty car parks tell the same story. The same fate would now appear to await the northern line as Irish Rail seeks to implement tram style services on an inflexible and inadequate infrastructure.

And yes there will always be people who don't like a particular change to the timetable, but it is very rare to so significantly degrade one class of user in favour of another unless you are a commercial operator seeking to maximise revenue - this timetable most assuredly won't do that as the higher fare paying passengers are those most likely to walk given that the average DART journey is no more than 9 km !
I find it difficult to believe that, unless you use the port tunnel, that you could get from either Drogheda or Dundalk (I'm assuming that it is one of those two stations) to Dublin City Centre in the same time at peak periods as the Enterprise?

But we have to face a reality here with the lines out of Connolly. Unless major infrastructural works are done on the Northern line, in other words four tracking for at least some of the line out of Connolly, and an "up" loop at Clongriffin, sharing track space between a high frequency commuter train and other suburban and Intercity services is going to need compromises.

The railway is competing against a high grade motorway, and once that was built, competition from express buses (be they Bus Eireann or private) was inevitable. I personally think people need to stop lobbying for the railway to be put back onto a level playing pitch, and for those infrastructure works that I mentioned above to happen so that the Northern line can become a truly competitive alternative to the motorway.

However, I still firmly believe that the 10 minute DART service is something that is needed and should go ahead. It will make a difference to user numbers, (and I think it will be more than modest) as it will truly be a turn up and go service, and will finally deliver a consistent service to Howth and Malahide which as we have seen here has not been the case heretofore.

I also think you are being very selective in your choice of timing differences on the Northern line. It's very easy to pick extremes, which are in fact very small in number and which mainly aren't at busy times.

Here are the statistics:

Northern line suburban services - northbound from Connolly:
Out of 25 northern line suburban services, 6 are faster by 1-5 minutes, 7 take exactly the same amount of time, 9 are 1-5 minutes slower, and 3 are 10-12 minutes slower from Connolly.

Northern line suburban services - southbound from Connolly:
Out of 28 northern line suburban services (I'm including the current morning relief service from Dundalk), 11 are faster by 1-4 minutes, 2 are the same, 9 are slower by 1-5 minutes, four by 6-7 minutes, and 1 slower by 11 minutes.

Belfast line northbound:
Out of 8 trains, 3 take the same time as before, 4 are 2-6 minutes slower, and one is 10 minutes slower.

Belfast line southbound:
Out of 8 trains, 5 are 2-6 minutes slower, and the other three are 12, 15 and 18 minutes slower (the latter being the last train southbound which has the lowest usage of the lot, so maybe not the best one to be quoting).

While I agree that having any trains taking longer is not good, it is far from being the absolute disaster you are making it out to be.

You're quite right to say that the timetable designer has gone to significant efforts to make this as effective as possible operationally, and I would hope with the slightly extended running times on DART that this will contribute to the timetable being more robust in practice.

With regard to the Rosslare line I think that people need to be realistic in their expectations. The line was never built as a high speed line, and the development of the M11 motorway has meant that inevitably the railway was going to suffer from a journey time perspective. It just cannot compete on time any more.

The introduction of the half-hourly DART to/from Greystones, something that locals campaigned for, means that the Rosslare trains have only two windows each hour to go around Bray Head, and the 10 minute DART service will inevitably lengthen times. The two paths each hour around Bray Head really are the main limiting factors as they dictate when trains reach crossing loops south of Bray and this can also mean longer waits at those points.

I don't really see what options there are for improving journey times on that route given the constraints of the 10 minute DART and half-hourly DART service to/from Greystones. DART is the main business on the route out of Pearse, and I'm afraid that the Rosslare line will inevitably have to play second fiddle to it, as there simply isn't any space along the route for trains to overtake one another. Again I'm afraid I think that the gains from the increased DART service will far outweigh the losses from the Rosslare services.

The only realistic options I can see for developing the line would be additional trains south of Greystones. The lack of paths around Bray Head just makes scheduling the route really difficult.

At the moment, with funding at a premium and company finances in a precarious state, I suspect any new services at the moment will be where there is a more definite chance of developing significant business.
berneyarms is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 15:41   #48
Inniskeen
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 951
Default

Berneyarms - what is the compromise ? The timetable is shaped entirely around the requirements of a ten minute interval DART which despite the clever crafting of the timetable will probably prove impractical to deliver. A simple double track railway can support a frequent service of fast trains, a frequent service of slow trains or a modest frequency of fast and slow trains. I can see no overwhelming case for a high frequency DART service delivered at the cost of a further incremental degrading of Intercity and longer distance commuter services.

On the northern line DART carries less than 60% of passengers proceeding beyond East Wall Junction yet under this timetable will account for close to 80% of train movements. This percentage of traffic attributable to DART drops off rapidly so that by Raheny the proportion carried by DART is less than that on other services. The obvious pattern of service would appear to be a Belfast express followed immediately by an express suburban service to Malahide and beyond followed by a DART. This pattern could be repeated every 15 minutes with or without the Belfast and or fast commuter service.

The main issue with DART is the gratuitous over crowding of peak trains despite lines of idle rolling stock in Fairview. While there is an increase in frequency of southside peak services, the number of peak DART services on the northern line is unchanged although they are a bit better balanced.
Inniskeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 16:48   #49
berneyarms
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 595
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inniskeen View Post
Berneyarms - what is the compromise ? The timetable is shaped entirely around the requirements of a ten minute interval DART which despite the clever crafting of the timetable will probably prove impractical to deliver. A simple double track railway can support a frequent service of fast trains, a frequent service of slow trains or a modest frequency of fast and slow trains. I can see no overwhelming case for a high frequency DART service delivered at the cost of a further incremental degrading of Intercity and longer distance commuter services.

On the northern line DART carries less than 60% of passengers proceeding beyond East Wall Junction yet under this timetable will account for close to 80% of train movements. This percentage of traffic attributable to DART drops off rapidly so that by Raheny the proportion carried by DART is less than that on other services. The obvious pattern of service would appear to be a Belfast express followed immediately by an express suburban service to Malahide and beyond followed by a DART. This pattern could be repeated every 15 minutes with or without the Belfast and or fast commuter service.

The main issue with DART is the gratuitous over crowding of peak trains despite lines of idle rolling stock in Fairview. While there is an increase in frequency of southside peak services, the number of peak DART services on the northern line is unchanged although they are a bit better balanced.
Clearly the NTA feel that is how the railway to be developed - based around a high frequency DART service.

Surely the extra running time with the DART will help make the timetable more robust?

As I pointed out above - a significant number of northern line services aren't affected from a journey time perspective (and some are faster), which you conveniently seem to ignore in any of your posts, merely fixating on the last train from Belfast which really is not representative.
berneyarms is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 19:07   #50
Traincustomer
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: ar an traein
Posts: 581
Default

Quote:
With regard to the Rosslare line I think that people need to be realistic in their expectations.
While acknowledging the various constraints I think that IÉ & the NTA need to be more innovative and positive with regard to this line rather than an overwhelming focus on what cannot be done.

The compromise/trade off for the enhanced DART frequency is already significant and at least one measure to counteract this such as reduced car parking fees at certain stations (as one poster suggested in recent days) ought to be considered. There are links between certain pairs of towns which the line provides which are not available by other public transport (or are slow & not particularly user-friendly) and that is one area for modest development.

For the Rosslare line this proposed timetable is 95-99% “take” and negligible “give” (the only aspect of the proposed timetable that is likely to be well-received by the majority is that it is intended to defer the last train from the city to the slightly later time of 19.00).
Traincustomer is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 19:31   #51
James Howard
Really Really Regluar Poster
 
James Howard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Sligo Line
Posts: 1,112
Default

I agree that a significant improvement to Malahide capacity is really necessary but the problem with this timetable is that it takes a lot from everyone else in order to deliver a very minor improvement in overall point-to-point journey times involving DART. The impact on the trains serving the 9 - 5:30 worker on the Longford commuter service is 21 minutes a day. The benefit to the DART commuter is 4 or 5 minutes a day at best and less for the person who is organised enough to know the timetable. Indeed if you consider that the average wait time is reduced by 2.5 minutes and the average running time is increased by 3, the point-to-point time is actually worse statistically.

The Maynooth line timetable really needs a far more radical recast. It would massively speed things up going towards Maynooth if every train stopped at Broombridge allowing transfers between Docklands and Connolly trains. Then the Dunboyne trains could serve stations between Broombridge and Clonsilla allowing 5 to 10 minutes to be cut off the Maynooth run. Maybe this wouldn't work for every station and every train and perhaps it would be best to leave this until after Luas BXD opens which would then give people the option of a simple connection to the south city centre and points further.

Does anybody know precisely why it now takes 9 minutes longer to get from Pearse to Bray than it did in 1985? Is there some form of continental drift involved? Every timetable, Irish Rail seem to add a minute or three onto journey times to improve reliability and robustness yet nothing ever changes. The Sligo line timetable is so robust that trains spend 10 minutes waiting at crossing points.
James Howard is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 20:34   #52
Inniskeen
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 951
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by berneyarms View Post
Clearly the NTA feel that is how the railway to be developed - based around a high frequency DART service.

Surely the extra running time with the DART will help make the timetable more robust?

As I pointed out above - a significant number of northern line services aren't affected from a journey time perspective (and some are faster), which you conveniently seem to ignore in any of your posts, merely fixating on the last train from Belfast which really is not representative.
The policy of addressing poor operational performance with more and more timetable padding is certainly an approach that has been used time and again without any great measure of success. In fact DART journey times have been extended by about 25% since the service was introduced and is now 1hr-15min from Howth to Bray compared with an hour or slightly less in the 1980s (and yes I know there are two extra stations). This approach gobbles up track, station platforms, rolling stock and personnel, reduces capacity, creates congestion and does little or nothing to the make the service more attractive.

In what way am I fixated on the last train from Belfast ? I do certainly think it is pathetic that the two principal morning business trains from Belfast will have their schedules extended by 12 minutes and 15 minutes respectively when it is patently obvious that reduced journey times are critical if the service is to have any long term future. The 0615 from Belfast takes an utterly extraordinary 47 minutes non-stop from Drogheda, probably the slowest advertised regular "express" schedule on this section of the line since the 2nd world war. Frankly this is a farcical. The DART underground schedule will no doubt see this schedule extended to about an hour.

Also noticeable is that the token Irish Rail morning commuter service from Newry has been removed from the schedule - admittedly this is replaced by the 0615 from Belfast but unlike Dundalk, Newry doesn't get a new "express" service to replace the 0650 from Belfast.

As for passengers travelling beyond Greystones (not surprisingly a rapidly declining number) - they will experience journey time increases of between 6 and 18 minutes one way. Will this line still be open in 5 or 10 years time ?

On the Sligo line the service has been re-organised in such a way as to reduce the number of afternoon and evening trains from Dublin by a quarter. There are some accelerations, although as elsewhere there are significant journey time extensions including one of 18 minutes and another of 26 minutes.
Inniskeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 20:40   #53
Dublin13
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Howard View Post
I agree that a significant improvement to Malahide capacity is really necessary but the problem with this timetable is that it takes a lot from everyone else in order to deliver a very minor improvement in overall point-to-point journey times involving DART. The impact on the trains serving the 9 - 5:30 worker on the Longford commuter service is 21 minutes a day. The benefit to the DART commuter is 4 or 5 minutes a day at best and less for the person who is organised enough to know the timetable. Indeed if you consider that the average wait time is reduced by 2.5 minutes and the average running time is increased by 3, the point-to-point time is actually worse statistically.
That may be true of passengers on the Howth branch, but it is not true for Passengers on the Malahide branch during evening peak where there are just two DART trains between 5.30 and 7.00pm to Malahide with there being five Howth's between 5.32 and 6.31.

The downside of the journey time being increased by a minute here or there is by far outweighed of the upside of a regular timetable without huge gaps like the current one has.
Dublin13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 20:44   #54
berneyarms
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 595
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Howard View Post
The Sligo line timetable is so robust that trains spend 10 minutes waiting at crossing points.
That's down quite simply to, the changes in line speed over the years, the fact that each train has to pass two en route and where the loops are physically located - it's nothing more than that.

That's a problem with an intensive service on a single track route.
berneyarms is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 20:46   #55
Inniskeen
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 951
Default

The Malahide issue (and I think it not actually Malahide you are talking about) could be addressed without the largely negative affect on so many other users.
Inniskeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 21:03   #56
berneyarms
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 595
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inniskeen View Post
The policy of addressing poor operational performance with more and more timetable padding is certainly an approach that has been used time and again without any great measure of success. In fact DART journey times have been extended by about 25% since the service was introduced and is now 1hr-15min from Howth to Bray compared with an hour or slightly less in the 1980s (and yes I know there are two extra stations). This approach gobbles up track, station platforms, rolling stock and personnel, reduces capacity, creates congestion and does little or nothing to the make the service more attractive.

In what way am I fixated on the last train from Belfast ? I do certainly think it is pathetic that the two principal morning business trains from Belfast will have their schedules extended by 12 minutes and 15 minutes respectively when it is patently obvious that reduced journey times are critical if the service is to have any long term future. The 0615 from Belfast takes an utterly extraordinary 47 minutes non-stop from Drogheda, probably the slowest advertised regular "express" schedule on this section of the line since the 2nd world war. Frankly this is a farcical. The DART underground schedule will no doubt see this schedule extended to about an hour.

Also noticeable is that the token Irish Rail morning commuter service from Newry has been removed from the schedule - admittedly this is replaced by the 0615 from Belfast but unlike Dundalk, Newry doesn't get a new "express" service to replace the 0650 from Belfast.

As for passengers travelling beyond Greystones (not surprisingly a rapidly declining number) - they will experience journey time increases of between 6 and 18 minutes one way. Will this line still be open in 5 or 10 years time ?

On the Sligo line the service has been re-organised in such a way as to reduce the number of afternoon and evening trains from Dublin by a quarter. There are some accelerations, although as elsewhere there are significant journey time extensions including one of 18 minutes and another of 26 minutes.
Well I think mentioning that trains are delayed by up to 20 minutes is kind of being selective as there is only one, and it has the lightest load of the lot! My point is that based on the analysis I provided, the vast majority of trains on the Belfast line have six minutes or less added - we can all pull out a headline of 20 minutes, but that's not representative of the majority.

I think you have to accept that the 10 minute DART service aspect of this consultation is more than likely going to happen. The Minister and the NTA have publically associated themselves with it, which from a political perspective tells me that it's likely to happen. Consequently I would be trying to find positive ways of dealing with how the other services can work around that and trying to minimise the impact.

I also think that the need for four tracking has to be drilled into politician's heads during the forthcoming election campaign as a priority.

I do share your frustration on the Rosslare line, but let's be realistic - the people in Greystones demanded a 30 minute DART - that alone has put severe constraints on what the Rosslare line can deliver. Extending the 10 minute DART means further constraints, but the M11 has delivered a much faster route that the railway at the best of times would find it hard to compete with.

Should potentially greater numbers of DART users be put on ice for a much lower number of travellers to/from Rosslare?

I suspect that the proposed Rosslare line timetable (certainly in the evening) could be improved upon by changing some of the times, and potentially reducing the impact of the 10 minute DARTs - there are some long waits at passing points that could be altered I believe.

Ultimately I am not sure what the best solution is for the line - off peak connections with DART at Bray or Greystones?

On the Sligo line I fully agree with you. There are some strange scheduling decisions on that I think need to be altered, particularly some of the adjusted trains during the afternoon, and some of the decelerations which to my eye can certainly be avoided.

Last edited by berneyarms : 03-12-2015 at 21:09.
berneyarms is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 21:12   #57
Dublin13
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 130
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inniskeen View Post
The Malahide issue (and I think it not actually Malahide you are talking about) could be addressed without the largely negative affect on so many other users.
If you're talking to me, I was referring to the Malahide branch, not Malahide station itself.
Dublin13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 21:29   #58
Inniskeen
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 951
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dublin13 View Post
If you're talking to me, I was referring to the Malahide branch, not Malahide station itself.
Hi, yes that's what I understood from your previous posts !
Inniskeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 03-12-2015, 22:25   #59
Inniskeen
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 951
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by berneyarms View Post
Well I think mentioning that trains are delayed by up to 20 minutes is kind of being selective as there is only one, and it has the lightest load of the lot! My point is that based on the analysis I provided, the vast majority of trains on the Belfast line have six minutes or less added - we can all pull out a headline of 20 minutes, but that's not representative of the majority.

I think you have to accept that the 10 minute DART service aspect of this consultation is more than likely going to happen. The Minister and the NTA have publically associated themselves with it, which from a political perspective tells me that it's likely to happen. Consequently I would be trying to find positive ways of dealing with how the other services can work around that and trying to minimise the impact.

I also think that the need for four tracking has to be drilled into politician's heads during the forthcoming election campaign as a priority.

I do share your frustration on the Rosslare line, but let's be realistic - the people in Greystones demanded a 30 minute DART - that alone has put severe constraints on what the Rosslare line can deliver. Extending the 10 minute DART means further constraints, but the M11 has delivered a much faster route that the railway at the best of times would find it hard to compete with.

Should potentially greater numbers of DART users be put on ice for a much lower number of travellers to/from Rosslare?

I suspect that the proposed Rosslare line timetable (certainly in the evening) could be improved upon by changing some of the times, and potentially reducing the impact of the 10 minute DARTs - there are some long waits at passing points that could be altered I believe.

Ultimately I am not sure what the best solution is for the line - off peak connections with DART at Bray or Greystones?

On the Sligo line I fully agree with you. There are some strange scheduling decisions on that I think need to be altered, particularly some of the adjusted trains during the afternoon, and some of the decelerations which to my eye can certainly be avoided.
So if the people of Greystones demand a half hourly service the people of Greystones get a half hourly service. The obvious way to serve Greystones is an hourly DART and an hourly Wexford service. And yes there is sufficient traffic south of Greystones if the service delivers a realistic journey time and frequency. This would also benefit Greystones as they would have an express service every hour which could run semi-fast leaving Bray just ahead of a DART. (15 minute interval DART from Bray).

Yes I have no doubt that this timetable will be pushed through irrespective of the impact on non DART patrons.

You make the argument that DART should take precedence over the Rosslare services because more people use the half hourly DART to Greystones. If you extend this argument, more people use Dublin Bus than LUAS, more people use LUAS than DART, more people use Bus Eireann than mainline rail and more people use roads than public transport - so why bother with public transport at all as only a small minority of people use it anyway.

Mind you if you go on revenue a Dundalk or Drogheda passenger is a more valuable commodity than a DART passenger. I think the average DART journey is something around 9 km so on a passenger-kilometer measure DART is a considerably less significant creature than a longer distance commuter train or mainline service.

Still it looks as if neither the NTA or Irish Rail have any real interest in longer distance Connolly commuters or main line rail travellers and I imagine that many of those currently using rail will have shifted to other modes by this time next year. Still the success story will be that DART capacity has been increased by so many percent even if the growth in passengers doesn't match the growth in service or much exceed numbers lost elsewhere.

Last edited by Inniskeen : 03-12-2015 at 22:53.
Inniskeen is offline   Reply With Quote
Unread 04-12-2015, 09:33   #60
berneyarms
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 595
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inniskeen View Post
So if the people of Greystones demand a half hourly service the people of Greystones get a half hourly service. The obvious way to serve Greystones is an hourly DART and an hourly Wexford service. And yes there is sufficient traffic south of Greystones if the service delivers a realistic journey time and frequency. This would also benefit Greystones as they would have an express service every hour which could run semi-fast leaving Bray just ahead of a DART. (15 minute interval DART from Bray).

Yes I have no doubt that this timetable will be pushed through irrespective of the impact on non DART patrons.

You make the argument that DART should take precedence over the Rosslare services because more people use the half hourly DART to Greystones. If you extend this argument, more people use Dublin Bus than LUAS, more people use LUAS than DART, more people use Bus Eireann than mainline rail and more people use roads than public transport - so why bother with public transport at all as only a small minority of people use it anyway.

Mind you if you go on revenue a Dundalk or Drogheda passenger is a more valuable commodity than a DART passenger. I think the average DART journey is something around 9 km so on a passenger-kilometer measure DART is a considerably less significant creature than a longer distance commuter train or mainline service.

Still it looks as if neither the NTA or Irish Rail have any real interest in longer distance Connolly commuters or main line rail travellers and I imagine that many of those currently using rail will have shifted to other modes by this time next year. Still the success story will be that DART capacity has been increased by so many percent even if the growth in passengers doesn't match the growth in service or much exceed numbers lost elsewhere.
Clearly the people in Greystones got political about it and demanded the level of service that they now have.

Realistically an hourly Wexford service isn't on the cards anytime soon and as I pointed about above the 10 minute DART aspect of this timetable is in my view going to happen, given that the NTA and the Minister have both associated themselves with it. Consequently, I think that looking at options under other DART frequencies isn't really realistic - the question really is what could be done alongside the 10 minute DART, and what infrastructural changes could help improve the longer distance services.

I make no apologies for stating that I do support the 10 minute DART service, as I think it will attract people back to the railway, but at the same time I think that the time is right to start actively lobbying for infrastructural changes to improve the lot of longer distance commuters.
berneyarms is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 16:54.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.