Alcohol on commuter trains

[ThomasJ]

Last nights 23.10 pearse maynooth was in a serious state, alcohol spilled, bottles and pint glasses all over the place. The driver had to apologise for the condition of the train and at one stage pearse staff got on the train, even with passengers boarding to help clear some of the mess.

I was told by a member of staff in Connolly a couple of months ago it was an issue with northern and maynooth line services. Despite more security presence on commuter trains, the problem remains.

There is a notice by DART management stating alcohol was not allowed on DART trains. Why was this notice not include commuter services? Is alcohol allowed on commuter trains?

A seperate issue why are so many notices being issued for DART services and not commuter services when it makes sense they should be issued for both.

[Mark Gleeson]

The DART notice has no legal standing. Unlike Northern Ireland it is not illegal to drink on a commuter train and there is no legal mechanism to declare a train 'dry'

A change of bye laws was required in London to stop people from drinking on the underground

[ACustomer]

I think you will find notices on the Waterford line timetable to the effect that alcohol is forbidden on Up Sunday afternoon and evening trains. Apparently this was implemented a few years ago because returning stag party weekenders (mainly from Kilkenny) had made life hell for everyone else. Whatever about the legality, it was a very welcome and firm response to a real problem which was deterring ordinary decent passengers.

[Colm Moore]

I had to remove an (empty) wine bottle form Dunboyne Station car park during the week, so it seems to be rather pervasive.

[James Howard]

I would be of two minds about this. On the 1805 to Longford, for as long as I've been commuting there has been a group of people travelling to Mullingar in the front car who treat the train journey as an opportunity to have a couple of cans of cider and a chat with their mates. This dates back to when the venue was the bar car of the old 1810 Sligo intercity.

These guys have a nice journey every day and don't bother anybody and I would think it makes the long-haul commute a lot more bearable for them.

On the other hand, you regularly see the odd thug on train with a few cans of scrumpy and who has to go to the toilet for a smoke every 20 minutes.

There is difference between these two types of people. The problem isn't the alcohol - it is the treatening behaviour and the illegal smoking in the toilet that is the problem. If Irish Rail had staff on the train (the 1805 to Longford is always driver only), there would be plenty of grounds to throw the threatening scumbags off without having to invent yet more rules that aren't enforced and yet deny a bit of pleasure to the law-abiding majority who might enjoy a glass of wine or a couple of tins of beer with their mates without causing offence to anyone.

[Thomas Ralph]

Originally Posted by ACustomer

I think you will find notices on the Waterford line timetable to the effect that alcohol is forbidden on Up Sunday afternoon and evening trains.

They say that, but they have no legal authority to prevent the consumption of alcohol on any train. However:

Originally Posted by CIÉ bylaws

16. No person in a state of intoxication shall enter or remain upon the railway or in any vehicle and no person who is in an unfit or improper condition to travel by passenger train or whose dress or clothing is in a condition liable to soil or injure the linings or cushions of any carriage, or the dress or clothing of any passenger, shall enter or remain in any lift or vehicle.

Provided that no person shall be prevented from entering or remaining in or on any lift or vehicle under the provisions of this Bye-Law on the ground of the condition of his or her dress or clothing when he or she so enters or remains in or on the lift or vehicle with the permission of an authorised person or when the vehicle is specially provided or set apart for workmen.

17. No person shall at any time while upon the railway or in any vehicle use any threatening, abusive, obscene, or offensive language or behave in a riotous, disorderly, indecent or offensive manner, or write, draw or affix any abusive, obscene or offensive word, representation, or character upon, or wilfully soil or defile, the railway or any lift or vehicle, or molest or wilfully interfere with the comfort or convenience of any passenger or person in or upon the railway or in any vehicle.

You'll note that these rules apply to all trains, rather than just some random subset of trains. The penalty is a fine (which appears to be €12.70) and the person can be kicked off the train if they fail to desist or quit their behaviour when requested to do so by an authorized person (read any CIÉ staff member or agent). As ever, the problem is not a lack of rules, it's a lack of enforcement of existing rules.

[Thomas Ralph]

Turns out the maximum fine is actually €1,000 (s. 128, Railway Safety Act, 2005).

[ccos]

As ever, the problem is not a lack of rules, it's a lack of enforcement of existing rules

Youve hit the nail on the head.

If they wont enforce exixting laws whats the point in bringing new ones that will make a quite drink illegall but wont do anything to get rid of the problem.

[philIreland]

Originally Posted by James Howard

I would be of two minds about this. On the 1805 to Longford, for as long as I've been commuting there has been a group of people travelling to Mullingar in the front car who treat the train journey as an opportunity to have a couple of cans of cider and a chat with their mates. This dates back to when the venue was the bar car of the old 1810 Sligo intercity.

These guys have a nice journey every day and don't bother anybody and I would think it makes the long-haul commute a lot more bearable for them.

Interesting perspective because I would have to disagree. I know exactly the guys you mean and I find them to often be rude and of late offensive. They practically barge anyone stood round "their pole" out of the way on old trains. Last Wednesday night, on one of the new trains, they pushed their way into the front door area, which was already full, practically standing on top of one poor man and young woman.

One of them was also being very offensive in religious terms. I am not religious at all but even I felt like punching him, if I'd been catholic I definitely would have!

If I thought Irish Rail would do anything about it, I would complain about their behaviour and request they be prevented from drinking on the train.

[Mark Gleeson]

The crew in Belfast take no nonsense http://www.translink.co.uk/News/Indu...ays-services-/

They even quoted our recent piece in the Irish Times http://www.translink.co.uk/NI-Railwa...Irish-trains-/

[Thomas J Stamp]

should be banned, properly, simple as. we have a dedicated minister now, should be easy for him to do it.

[James Howard]

I may have picked a slightly bad example although I must say, I have never had any bother from this group of people but perhaps that is because it is always they way it has been on that train.

Anyway, are we now extending discussion to banning offensive or blasphemous conversation from the train? Given that blasphemy is already (incredibly) a criminal offence in Ireland, surely all you need to do if find a guard or Irish Rail staff member and report this.

Which leads me to my second point - when is the last time you have seen an Irish Rail staff member in the passenger area of this train? It is about 3 years since I've seen one and I take this train 4 times a week.

So, if you banned alcohol, do you think the kind of scumbag who engages in threatening behaviour is going to pay the blindest bit of notice? No, the only person who would be affected is the little old lady who might like a quarter bottle of wine for her journey or the law abiding majority who might fancy a cold beer at the end of a hot day. Even if they were to enforce it, do you fancy standing in a queue at Connolly station while staff go through your bags looking for beer? I never have a drink on the train as I have to drive when I get to the station but it is obvious to me how just banning it would introduce a stack of unintended consequences and would make no difference as it would never be enforced.

Now, threatening behaviour is an entirely different thing and the reality is that it is as likely to be as a result of people being high as it is of them being pissed. The behaviour itself is the issue, not the cause of it. The best resolution for this would be to deploy some security personnel who would get on trains at random stops and deal with people who are acting the maggot.