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Unread 30-09-2006, 20:27   #1
Derek Wheeler
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Default The Heuston Factor

This particular issue stems from a discussion in the members section regarding integrated ticketing. I thought it might be interesting to throw it out to the general public for discussion/opinion etc. Its a well known one.

When travelling by train to or from Heuston station, Dublin, ticket prices are different, depending on whether you want to take a bus or Luas. If you begin your journey in Dublin city centre you cannot buy a through Luas/bus/rail ticket. You must first buy your connecting service ticket and then purchase your rail ticket in Heuston. If you are travelling to Heuston by rail from any other destination, there are 2 different ticket prices.

1. To Heuston station only

and

2. To the "city centre" using Bus or Luas.

There are a number of issues connected to this situation. Doesn't it seem unfair that CIE for many many years have applied 2 charges to rail passengers arriving into Heuston station.(they did it even before IE was set up as a seperate entity. Real criminality.) Its almost like an admission that Heuston is not quite the final destination. Obviously its remote, but thats not the fault of passengers. So why should they be subjected to different fare scales. You can of course purchase the "through ticket" from all stations that operate services to Heuston. But it may not be highlighted to you at the time of purchase and the prices are different. Hence the many passengers who fumble for change to pay for the bus or luas.

While we wait for integrated ticketing, isnt it about time that we put an end to this rediculous scenario. For a start, all fares from destinations serving Heuston should be fixed at one cost that automatically includes the transfer to the city centre and return. No more "Dick Turpin" performances from the genius that emanates from IE/CIE head offices. Heuston station is the stop for Dublin, not "near" Dublin. This "cosy" earner for CIE has now been inherited by luas and compounded by the luas TVM's inability to offer a combined luas and rail ticket. The city centre-Heuston route is an established combined mode transport option used by 1000s daily, yet there appears to be a 2 tiered fare structure that continues to "isolate" Heuston and copperfasten a mentality that goes back to 1847!

"Please note"

No descriptions of combined monthly tickets, obscure codes in IE ticket machines that permit through journies (that the staff don't even know about) or any other hardly known mechanism that facilitates what Im proposing. This thread is for the ordinary user who hasn't a clue and based on the obvious daily rip off that the "Heuston Factor" causes. We'll move to Cork after this.

Last edited by Derek Wheeler : 30-09-2006 at 20:31.
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Unread 01-10-2006, 00:01   #2
luasifer
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This is a complete farce of a situation. I asked for a day return ticket to Grand Canal Dock from Newbridge the other day and was told it was 18 euro. I know in fact it is 15 euro which is the same as the city centre return. The ticket guy in Newbridge laughed when I suggested this. Even the 15 + 2.45 for Dart return is less than 18 so what is going on with this crowd.

Why cant the TVMs issue tickets to other destinations in the Greater Dublin Area besides those on the Kildare line? Why dont they use the map format like luas do? Why cant we get weekly tickets to the city centre or Dart destinations from these machines? What is the point of these machines if they dont even provide the most common ticket (weekly to city centre)?? They have done nothing to reduce the queues!

IE are a complete joke
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Unread 01-10-2006, 12:41   #3
Mark Gleeson
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We have received a verbal agreement (given in front of 150+ people) that Luas through ticketing would be implemented, in fact before I mentioned this to the manager in charge in October 2005 he was unaware that it was missing from the system

Now if I'm in Howth and ask for a single to Heuston the clerk will issue it no questions or funny business and it works out 40 cent cheaper, that works. Now the opposite won't the RPA won't issue Heuston Howth we have asked them and they had a list of excuses each of which where false obstructions they plain just don't want to implement it. If I'm at any IE station served from Heuston and ask for a ticket to any other intercity destination even with Connolly in the middle it works, no questions no funny business, if you ask for Dublin City Centre it works the only time you hit a problem is when you ask for a suburban station in Dublin since that station is not listed on the intercity manual and requires a few seconds to find but in some cases owing to abnormality in IE's pricing structure you are best off getting two tickets and some staff have been instructed not to issue them at the time we thought that weird until we found out why the staff don't know why though

Given the multitude of combinations its very hard to track down the glitches we know of a few it just expensive to prove it and yes you have found a glitch at Grand Canal Dock the fare should not exceed €17.45, €15 is not correct since that only gets you as far as Connolly (€13 + €2 for Luas) most of the glitches do not effect through Luas journeys most are purely Connolly based. There are two fares between Newbridge and Grand Canal Dock, one valid on the Luas and one which is not make sure you have the right one http://www.platform11.org/passenger_...php#luas_valid

The map idea doesn't scale up but there is already a basic zonal structure in place in the official commuter area

So we have a situation where IE can issue a ticket to any Luas Red line central zone destination (yes it works from Connolly as well) but the RPA wont do the opposite. I blame the RPA for a lot of this since implementing this at a cost of simply rewriting the Luas ticket machines software (IE's machines wont need a rewrite just add the stations) would be tiny compared to the integrated ticketing project they have well and truly screwed up

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 02-10-2006 at 00:30.
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Unread 01-10-2006, 13:20   #4
Derek Wheeler
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Quote:
"Please note"

No descriptions of combined monthly tickets, obscure codes in IE ticket machines that permit through journies (that the staff don't even know about) or any other hardly known mechanism that facilitates what Im proposing. This thread is for the ordinary user who hasn't a clue and based on the obvious daily rip off that the "Heuston Factor" causes. We'll move to Cork after this.
Its getting off topic. Im talking about the 2 tiered system that operates to and from Heuston, not the broader issue of ticket rip offs. You must pay additional money to get to and from Heuston. Heuston is the main intercity station for Dublin, yet when CIE had a total monopoly, they milked it by adding an additional charge to complete the last leg of the journey. (same in reverse direction. In 1989 NIR started a bus service between York st station and Central station. It was free. The standard rail fare to and from Heuston should automatically include the "city centre" part.
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Unread 01-10-2006, 17:28   #5
luasifer
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Mark,

I am correct about the 15 euro. I have gotten return tickets to Lansdowne Road, Pearse, Grand Canal Dock many times in the past and this is the price. I presume this is because these are classed as city centre stations.

I have also inversely gotten single tickets from Grand Canal Dock to Newbridge and it has cost 12 euro which is the correct fare from Newbridge to the city centre.

Also a family member of mine commutes to Clontarf Road and the day return price is 15 euro, in fact it is the same for Killester and Harmonstown. How IE find it difficult to integrate and have a consistent fare structure on such a small system is beyond me.

Coming back to Derek's point. Am I right in saying that Enterprise passengers get a free Dart transfer to Tara Street and Pearse??

If this is the case then surely Heuston passengers should be accomodated in a similar way.

If we look at Paris for example, which to me has one of the finest transport systems in the world. If you get an RER ticket to Paris from one of the suburbs you are entitled to travel to any station in zone 1, which actually includes nearly the whole metro system.

Our ticket and fare structure is so outdated it is embarrassing. It is also unfair to some areas by being unfairly expensive and too cheap to others

Last edited by PaulM : 02-10-2006 at 10:46.
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Unread 01-10-2006, 18:03   #6
Mark Gleeson
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I don't doubt it exists my question is does the ticket contain the correct printed valid on Luas string

We have examples of tickets bought Kildare line which if a Luas revenue inspector found you traveling on would result in a penalty fare being applied since they are not Luas valid. I travel on a monthly ticket valid on the 90/91/92 which isn't Luas valid

(Edit: I travel on Luas on a smartcard not on my IE ticket)

This one for example is not Luas valid. I can produce a Seapoint Hazelhatch one as well and I know Clontraf Rd Hazelhatch results in the same non Luas valid behaviour
Name:  ticket.jpg
Views: 764
Size:  28.5 KB

In reality the fare Belfast Pearse is the same as Belfast Connolly so it doesn't really matter

The root problem is that fixing this is easy problem is that DB and Connex are seriously out of pocket is it is implemented and that explains exactly why things are the way they are. The RPA don't want to know about IE to Luas ticketing they where suprised when we told the story that IE where going to implement it. Best we can hope for is that the current fare be actually available not hidden. Ile de France section of SNCF and RATP are subsidised to the order of 50+% while Dublin Bus might get 10% thats the real problem every operator is guarding there revenue since a through ticket results in more red tape and less cash

I've argued the merits of a central zone before (http://forum.platform11.org/showthre...t=Central+Zone) but we won't be seeing that until the DTA gets its cheque book out

Quote:
What about a whole city, all transport approach ?
What we need is a city wide zonal system for all transport modes

Heuston to Point, Canal to Canal, to Broadstone should be the central zone, one core area. play clever and you could incorporate all rail services (Grand Canal Dock, Heuston, Drumcondra, Spencer Dock,) as well as all buses within the canals

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 01-10-2006 at 18:23.
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Unread 01-10-2006, 20:35   #7
luasifer
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I am fairly certain that it exists and is valid on the luas. I am going to experiment with this next week even though it will put me out of pocket.

We are 100% in agreement on the need for zones to be set up that apply to luas and IE. Its a ridiculous situation currently.

IE do seem to have some sort of central zone it's just that their tickets are all destination specific. So it results in a situation where a ticket to Connolly is the same price as a ticket to Pearse. That was my whole point on the Kildare line situation. It doesnt cost any extra to go to Pearse or Grand Canal than Connolly
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Unread 01-10-2006, 20:53   #8
Oisin88
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Why not a free central zone to get the city moving?

Bus Átha Cliath have some sort of a shoppers fare from Henry to Grafton street. Maybe it could be stretched to the zone above. That might get more votes than universal free travel for the generation that own us all.

Perth (Western Australia) have 2 free city centre loop buses. That would be another idea.
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Unread 01-10-2006, 21:05   #9
Mark Gleeson
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The ticket will have IFB, IFS, LUAS on it if it doesn't its not Luas valid, its important to be sure since it can be hit and miss. Without knowing that its hard to judge

Where it gets confusing is there are 2 sets of fare zones one for intercity and one suburban

Quote:
Originally Posted by luasifer
We are 100% in agreement on the need for zones to be set up that apply to luas and IE. Its a ridiculous situation currently.
Its a no brainer but try selling it to the RPA? The equilvent in Belfast before 1995 was actually operated under contract for NIR given Cullen that won't happen in Dublin

Quote:
Originally Posted by luasifer
IE do seem to have some sort of central zone it's just that their tickets are all destination specific. So it results in a situation where a ticket to Connolly is the same price as a ticket to Pearse. That was my whole point on the Kildare line situation. It doesnt cost any extra to go to Pearse or Grand Canal than Connolly
There is a city centre station on the ticketing matrix, Pearse Tara and Connolly are grouped as one but in the absence of a physical zone on a map its ambiguous and confusing. If you live southside and ask for Pearse the ticket 99.9% of the time is issued to Connolly I assume the northside gets the same deal

The root of the issue is DB and RPA have to get money out of it, solution is very simple all the ills integrated ticketing the whole gig is as simple as a slightly dodgy circle drawn on a map centered on College Green
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Unread 01-10-2006, 21:10   #10
Derek Wheeler
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Quote:
IE do seem to have some sort of central zone it's just that their tickets are all destination specific. So it results in a situation where a ticket to Connolly is the same price as a ticket to Pearse. That was my whole point on the Kildare line situation. It doesnt cost any extra to go to Pearse or Grand Canal than Connolly
At last. Thank you Luasifer. The Heuston situation is 19th century bull. In 1847, you paid a jarvey for the run to and from. That was fair enough, because the railway company were only obliged to pick you up or drop you off at "Kingsbridge" (Heuston) But, when nationalisation of the system came about under CIE, both modes of bus and train came under one banner, but the fare at Heuston was still subject to an addition for the city centre stretch. It beggars belief. To this day, you are charged twice (be it seperate or combined) to get from Westport, Ballina,Galway, Limerick, Tralee, Cork, Waterford and all intermediate stations (phew!) to Dublin city centre! You also pay twice, if your journey commences in Dublin city centre. This is, perhaps, the oldest rip off anomaly on our railway system. And we havent even discussed Cork yet!

By the way, the RPA/Luas situation is only relevent to this topic in the context of fare charges and not the integration of tickets. IE/CIE are still the ones responsible for providing the facility that allows you to buy a through ticket on the 90 bus to all Heuston served destinations and incoming journies.(at a fixed price) It could've been done donkeys years ago. Absolutely no excuses. The situation in relation to Heuston station is a joke, created by CIE management before most of us were born. Furthermore, whats the point of having a go at the RPA for failing to offer all Heuston rail journies through their TVMs, when all IE have done is offer one Luas journey through their ticketing system. Like with like please.
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Unread 01-10-2006, 21:12   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson
the whole gig is as simple as a slightly dodgy circle drawn on a map centered on College Green
Even simpler, the circle the victorians gave us: the canals/ North Circular Road.
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Unread 01-10-2006, 21:32   #12
Derek Wheeler
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Quote:
The root of the issue is DB and RPA have to get money out of it, solution is very simple all the ills integrated ticketing the whole gig is as simple as a slightly dodgy circle drawn on a map centered on College Green
Leave the RPA out of it for the moment and try to remember the old days that were CIE. (and remember that IE is still the same bunch of CIE heads with a different name and puppet board.) Try very hard to leave the integrated ticketing issue aside aswell. What this thread is about is the issue at Heuston and the very very very very simple fact that it costs additional money to make the connection to or from the "city centre". This basic anomaly is the starting point and so far, Ive read posts from Mark talking all kinds of things, but not addressing the core issue of this thread, which is what is the thinking behind CIE/IEs persistance in charging "twice" in relation to Heuston?
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Unread 02-10-2006, 08:52   #13
Colm Donoghue
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Derek, I presume you'ld expect Bus Eireann to take you from Cork train station to pana?
Drogheda train station to Drogheda,
Rathdrum to Rathdrum etc.

Where do you draw the line?

In Paris, you have to buy a metro ticket if you arrive by Train...
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Unread 02-10-2006, 10:15   #14
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I think what Derek's point is is this:

When the GSWR built the line to Heuston you would get a ticvket to their terminus. Then you would have to get some other way of getting into the city centre. When CIE took over both the railway and the buses this situation should have been changed, as you were infact paying the same company twice.

Today I can get a ticket from Templemore witgh the option of getting the LUAS or no 90 bus on the same ticket. Now, what happens to the small extra charge I pay in Templemore? They dont know if I take the bus, the LUAS or deicde its alovely day so I'll walk. Who gets that money? And, more to the piont, why should I pay CIE twice to get into the city centre? And forget any pedantic stuff oh they're seperate companies, they are owned by CIE.

Also, it appears that when I pay the additional charge it is actually cheaper than the reutrn ticket for LUAS and two singles on the 90. How does that work?
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Unread 02-10-2006, 11:19   #15
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I say draw the line at Dublin Suburban stations. So if you buy a ticket from Kildare to Dublin it is valid to zone 1. Intercity is acceptable to pay the 1euro add on.

In Paris the RER is the suburban train network. You do not need to buy a seperate metro ticket on this. A ticket to Paris on the RER is valid to any metro station in zone 1.
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Unread 02-10-2006, 11:40   #16
Mark Gleeson
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And thats the way it will become under the integrated ticketing project

Same goes in London, tickets are marked LONDON BRIT RAIL and are not valid underground unless a change is involved just like Dublin
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Unread 02-10-2006, 12:21   #17
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Not everybody does purchase the "city centre add-on" when going to Dublin, so I think it is fair that there is a choice. It's a shame that you can't by train/LUAS tickets from LUAS stops. It is surely not too complicated to add such a ticket to the LUAS ticketing system.
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Unread 02-10-2006, 12:54   #18
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I read an article recently that DB (Germany) are planning in implimenting on their intercity tickets an hour of travel on tram/metro services etc from the main station upon which you arrive. Clever idea I thought.

Derek I think it all stems back to the fare structure. I personally wouldnt expect to have my Tralee to Heuston ticket to include a connection unless I asked for it.

I zonal or time limited fare structure would solve many of these problems. The idea of particular destinations rather than zones is just confusing.

However I think the idea of an hour traval on all modes add-on type facility on request would be very popular if advertised well. Need not be just Heuston either.
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Unread 02-10-2006, 13:13   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
I read an article recently that DB (Germany) are planning in implimenting on their intercity tickets an hour of travel on tram/metro services etc from the main station upon which you arrive. Clever idea I thought.
It is clever and it's already in use. It's called 'city-ticket' but you must have a Bahncard to use it. A Bahncard is a card that costs x per year and then all tickets purchased with it have 25%, 50% or 100% knocked off depending on whether you have the Bahncard25, Bahncard50 or Bahncard100 respectively. AFAIK a regular non-Bahncard user (very few regular users wouldn't have at least invested in a Bahncard25 or 50 which are about €100-€200 per year, the 100 costs about €2,000 however!) cannot avail of city-ticket.
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Unread 02-10-2006, 13:15   #20
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If I arrive in any Dutch city by rail I must buy a seperate ticket to use the metro/tram/bus system.
the same is true in Brussels, Luxembourg and a few German Cities I've been to.
I don't see the problem???????
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