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Unread 17-02-2012, 09:46   #1
comcor
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Default The times of the last trains from Dublin.

With the exception of Cork and Limerick, why are they so early?

I'm thinking particularly of Westport (18:30) and Waterford (18:35). These scarcely give time for someone to get across Dublin to Heuston if they finish work at half five.

I can partially understand with Westport (low volume route, long journey time), but in the case of Waterford, the 18:35 could probably make it back to Dublin that evening, meaning another set could be sent down to operate services the following morning.

Even in the case of Westport, is there any possibility of a connection from the 19:15 to Galway?

Is this purely an operational thing or is it a usual lack of attention to what customers might actually want?
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Unread 17-02-2012, 10:24   #2
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I should think it is largely historical and to do with the cost of manning level crossings and signals especially since Irish Rail have mostly left the freight business and so the lines wouldn't be open for freight late at night.

When they automated the signalling on the Sligo line, they extended the operating hours by about 2 hours. At this point, I would say there would be enough trade for a 3-car 22k at 9:05PM on the Sligo line to Longford at least. This has got to be viable now that staffing levels on the line are pretty much zero.
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Unread 17-02-2012, 13:00   #3
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IR grew freight traffic in 2011 by 13.6% over 2010.

Ballina-Dublin Port and West of Ireland-Waterford.

http://www.independent.ie/business/i...c-3023127.html

Quote:
I'm thinking particularly of Westport (18:30) and Waterford (18:35). These scarcely give time for someone to get across Dublin to Heuston if they finish work at half five.

I can partially understand with Westport (low volume route, long journey time), but in the case of Waterford, the 18:35 could probably make it back to Dublin that evening, meaning another set could be sent down to operate services the following morning.
I think it would be great if they extended the 20.05 Heuston-Carlow to Waterford but then there would be no 21.25 from Carlow to Heuston.
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Unread 17-02-2012, 13:08   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie2k9 View Post
I think it would be great if they extended the 20.05 Heuston-Carlow to Waterford but then there would be no 21.25 from Carlow to Heuston.
Could be with a little outside-the-box thinking. Run 2×3 22000s as the 2005 down, then split them at Carlow, send one set to Waterford and the other set back.
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Unread 17-02-2012, 13:24   #5
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There is one major gap in the Waterford timetable and thats no train to Hueston between 07.40 - 11.00. If the above did happon (highly unlightly) it could run a train at around 09.00 from Waterford.
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Unread 17-02-2012, 13:32   #6
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Quote:
manning level crossings and signals
Are the signals not controlled from Dublin and in regaurds to Waterford it would require one person to man two level crossings as if a few weeks the third level crossing willl be going automatic.
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Unread 17-02-2012, 18:05   #7
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the whole Waterford timetable is #rseways (no commuter ex Carlow, no commuter ex Clonmel, last towards Dublin too early) but the reality is that the station is in an awkward location where most of the city has to cross the Suir to get at it.
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Unread 17-02-2012, 18:29   #8
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The reality is demand is the problem

The 21:00 to Cork is near empty Mon-Thurs, the 19:00 is hardly busy beyond Portlaoise. The 22:20 Heuston Portlaoise is principally an empty movement to depot which happens to fill a gap for a service.

The challenge is to get to Athlone, Mullingar and Arklow leaving at 9pm where there is a reasonable demand but without the cost of going the whole way
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Unread 17-02-2012, 20:20   #9
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Quote:
the whole Waterford timetable is #rseways (no commuter ex Carlow, no commuter ex Clonmel, last towards Dublin too early) but the reality is that the station is in an awkward location where most of the city has to cross the Suir to get at it.
There is a morning 6.25 from Carlow with the only problem being no train from Carlow between 09.00-12.15 other wise its mainly 1 or 2 hours gaps which is fairly good.

I can't see much demand for a late service between Waterford-Heuston at night. Since the 16.50 started I have noticed an affect on the 18.20 passenger numbers which were never great anyway. If it was moved to 19.30 it would be better and would have a slightly quicker journey time which is always a +.

What should be on the top of IE list is to have one of the current 16.35,17.35 or 18.35) / new service only serving Carlow,Waterford and mabye Athy which would realy help.
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Unread 18-02-2012, 02:30   #10
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Dublin-Dundalk/Greystones/Maynooth/Kildare get a good deal with the last departure after 2300. Monasterevin, Portarlington and Portlaoise aren't far behind with a 2210 departure.

Belfast, Portadown, Newry, Cork, Mallow, LJ, Limerick, Thurles, Athy and Carlow get a reasonable deal with departures in the 2000-2100 bracket. While the Cork line passenger can probably fit a quick meal and a movie in after work, the others won't.

Lisburn (connecting service?), Kilcock-Sligo, most Galway line stations, Ballybrophy, Templemore, Charleville, Banteer-Tralee and the Cobh/Midleton lines don't fare as well as last departure is in the 1900-1915 bracket, although I suppose this is useful for most day trip purposes, one can't maximise the stay. Travelling a modest distance, it's a raw deal for Enfield-Longford and Tullamore-Athlone passengers.

Kilcoole-Rosslare Harbour, Muine Bheag-Waterford, Sixmilebridge, Ennis and Athlone-Westport/Ballina aren't doing well at all with last departures of 1830-1838 bracket, with Waterford being worst hit, as it is the biggest population centre and a relatively close terminus. For someone away from the city centre and finishing at 1800 makes, it a potentially tight connection.

The Nenagh Branch and Clara are quite restricted with last departures before 1800, making it impossible for most commuters. Waterford-LK and Gort, Ardrahan, Craughwell and Attymon are worst off, with passengers needing to be on the 1700 ex Heuston. With multiple (5!) connections required, Attymon passenger won't get home until 5h36m later

Departure times are from Connolly / Heuston as appropriate. Trips to Attymon depend on travel via Athenry. Lurgan and north of Belfast do not have direct weekday services.
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Unread 18-02-2012, 03:20   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie2k9 View Post
There is a morning 6.25 from Carlow
I meant southbound.
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Unread 18-02-2012, 16:24   #12
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Default Late-evening solution to/from Waterford:

An option suggested to IÉ in late-2010 was for the last Limerick Junction to Waterford train to extend to Carlow Mondays to Fridays inclusive. At Carlow it would offer a connection into the present-day 21.35 Carlow to Heuston and take a connection from the 20.10 Heuston-Carlow.

No existing journey opportunities would be lost and a new late-evening connection in both directions Waterford-Dublin would be created.

Minor retimings of a few minutes may be necessary to either or both trains.

The new Waterford-Carlow service could omit certain intermediate station stops or serve all three of Thomastown, Kilkenny and Muine Bheag. Ditto for the return Carlow to Waterford journey.

The finer detail of this would mean this new train crossing the 18.35 ex Heuston at Ballyhale loop (is there a rule of whether it's the down train or up train that must occupy the loop? In my experience it always seems to be the down train that occupies the loop with the up train having a "clear run").

There would appear to be no other conflicts/crossings and, of course, Carlow can accommodate both trains simultaneously. A slight downside though is the need for passengers to cross the footbridge at Carlow station.

The reply from IÉ at the time cited that market conditions at present wouldn't justify such a service but that the issue would be reviewed in the future.

If it ever happened at a future date that an ICR took over Limerick Jct. - Waterford then the evening Limerick Jct. - Waterford could run through to Heuston and the 20.10 Heuston-Carlow through to Waterford.

Having used the 20.10 Heuston-Carlow on a few occasions this year it is quite well used - all three coaches substantially filled ex Heuston with numbers well in the tens going past Kildare (to both Athy and Carlow) but I doubt a 6-car ICR could be justified.

Last edited by Traincustomer : 18-02-2012 at 16:38. Reason: typo & additional text
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Unread 18-02-2012, 21:13   #13
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Quote:
The finer detail of this would mean this new train crossing the 18.35 ex Heuston at Ballyhale loop (is there a rule of whether it's the down train or up train that must occupy the loop? In my experience it always seems to be the down train that occupies the loop with the up train having a "clear run").
Trains can cross from both sides.

09.10 stops and 11.00 straight through.
11.10 stops and 13.00 straight through.
13.10 stops and 14.50 straight through.
15.10 straight through and 16.50 stop.
16.35 straight through and 18.20 stop.

Then if one is delayed its the first one that approches stops. From having done both I find the signals take longer to change for the up trains that are stopped.

Last edited by Jamie2k9 : 18-02-2012 at 21:19.
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Unread 18-02-2012, 22:40   #14
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Thanks for taking the time to explain that - much appreciated. I had a feeling that either up or down trains could use it but wasn't 100% sure of the procedure and had clearly based my thoughts on what the morning trains do!

Last edited by Traincustomer : 18-02-2012 at 22:42. Reason: addition
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Unread 19-02-2012, 04:02   #15
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Since the Limerick Junction-Waterford set starts from Waterford you'd think there would be operational efficiencies in making it an all-22000 operation even if a 200 seat 100mph set is, erm, overkill for the line in question! Instead they will probably refresh the crews onto 2800s ex Limerick-Galway (the first 2800 has been seen on Limerick-Galway).

I did have a similar thought re: the last northbound train back in April 2010.
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send the 2027 arr ex Limerick Junction express to Carlow and back. At a stroke, you extend the "last train" Waterford-Dublin AND Dublin-Waterford by two hours, and if the LJ arrival could be reliably accelerated maybe even stop in Kilkenny.
That train is now scheduled for 2028. It doesn't help that for some reason the LimerickJ-Waterford service is held no less than nine minutes after the Dublin, Cork and Limerick services leave LJ (1850 dep). Is there any scope to narrow that gap now that all this resignalling work has been done?
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Unread 19-02-2012, 20:54   #16
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Maybe the margin in part is to allow for possible late-running of the two mainline trains of a few minutes. It should be advanced a few minutes. The adage of every minute counts cited by others on this forum is very much true.

A key thing to decide about a new evening train Waterford-Carlow (or Waterford-Heuston if all ICR operation) and vice versa is its stopping pattern.
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Unread 19-02-2012, 21:00   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dowlingm View Post
I did have a similar thought re: the last northbound train back in April 2010.
That train is now scheduled for 2028. It doesn't help that for some reason the LimerickJ-Waterford service is held no less than nine minutes after the Dublin, Cork and Limerick services leave LJ (1850 dep). Is there any scope to narrow that gap now that all this resignalling work has been done?
On the timetables, intermediate timings tend to be tight, with all the make up time loaded towards the end of a journey. This results in arrivals at intermediate stations being frequently late. I presume the long connection time is to guarantee the connection. However, they could restate things such that 'the Waterford train will depart at X, but will always wait for the Cork-Dublin-Cork trains, assuming it is less than Y minutes late.' This would need to take into account the crossing times with Waterford-LJ trains.
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