Rail Users Ireland Forum

Go Back   Rail Users Ireland Forum > General Information & Discussion > Events, Happenings and Media
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Unread 26-05-2006, 08:52   #1
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
Default [article] Rail plans on the wrong track

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Times
Rail plans on the wrong track

The planning of new rail lines in Dublin as free-standing projects is hindering the prospect of achieving an integrated transport system, writes Frank McDonald, Environment Editor.

Last week, Minister for Transport Martin Cullen declared that the Government's €34.4 billion Transport 21 programme was "not just about individual high-profile projects such as metro, but about the way in which projects are integrated".

However, it is already clear that the "highly efficient, integrated transport network" imagined by the Minister will not be so integrated on the ground in Dublin because people using it would have to walk considerable distances to get from one line to another.

Anyone travelling by public transport from Tallaght to Dublin airport, for example, would have to lug his or her bags from the Luas stop outside Wynn's Hotel to the metro station on Upper O'Connell Street - a minimum distance of 280 metres (308 yards).

Similarly, passengers on the Maynooth suburban railway line seeking to transfer to the Tallaght Luas line will have to walk 350m (385 yards) from the planned rail terminus north of Sheriff Street to the nearest Luas stop serving Docklands.

Neither will the most likely route for Metro North (serving the airport) connect with the Maynooth line.

The distance between the proposed metro station on Botanic Road and a planned Iarnród Éireann station at Prospect will also be 350m.

Mirroring the failure to link up the two existing Luas lines in the city centre (now belatedly being remedied), the fundamental problem is that plans for new rail lines are all being presented as free-standing projects with little reference to integration.

Planning permission for the new rail terminus at Spencer Dock, which will serve Maynooth and the proposed line to Navan, was granted recently by Dublin City Council - subject to its removal in 10 years to facilitate intensive redevelopment of the area.

This decision was based on an assumption that the proposed underground rail link between Spencer Dock and Heuston Station would be finished by then.

Under Transport 21, the projected completion date of this major tunnelling project is 2015.

The tunnel would run via Pearse Station (connecting with Dart), St Stephen's Green (connecting with the Sandyford Luas line and the Airport metro) and the Liberties. At Heuston, it would connect with the Tallaght Luas line and the Kildare Arrow service.

Though it is the single most strategic element of the Transport 21 investment programme, because it would double the capacity of the suburban railway network, the long timescale given for its construction will create more immediate problems for rail users.

According to Platform 11, which campaigns for better rail services, the planned upgrade of the Kildare line to four tracks will create a significant over-capacity problem at Heuston Station until the rail interconnector with Spencer Dock opens in 2015.

Seán Giblin, of the Lucan "Deliver It Right" campaign, demonstrated that if bus and Luas services are not improved, "there will be a peak-hour deficit of nearly 6,000 passengers arriving at Heuston with no onward connection possibility to the city centre". Even after the introduction of longer trams on the Tallaght line and a doubling of the number of buses serving Heuston to 20-plus per hour, "there will still be a deficit of nearly 3,000 passengers with no onward connection possibility to the city centre".

At the Kildare route public inquiry last January, Giblin proposed that Iarnród Éireann should send four peak-hour Arrow commuter trains through the largely disused Phoenix Park tunnel to the proposed Spencer Dock station as an interim solution.

Pat Butler SC, the inspector who conducted the inquiry, recommended this week that the Minister direct Iarnród Éireann to initiate a study of the delivery of ongoing services from Heuston in conjunction with Dublin Bus and the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) within six months.

In its submission to the RPA on route options for Metro North, which would serve Swords as well as the airport, Platform 11 also stressed the need for integration of rail services. In particular, it called for a direct link between metro and the Maynooth line. The group has proposed that the RPA should vary its preferred route for Metro North to link up with the Maynooth line at Drumcondra, where a station already exists, to overcome the problem of a long walk between Botanic Road and Prospect station.

"This should be a no-brainer," according to Fine Gael councillor and Dáil candidate for Dublin West Dr Leo Varadkar. "Failing to link the two rail lines would be an error of gigantic proportions and would be laughed at in any other country in the world."

A spokesman for the RPA said earlier this week that a number of options were now being examined in response to the recent round of public consultations on Metro North, including the location of stations on the route to facilitate easier interchange.
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/opi...P26TRAINS.html
© The Irish Times 2006
Mark Gleeson is offline  
Unread 26-05-2006, 10:15   #2
Mark
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northern line
Posts: 1,311
Default

Brilliant.
Mark is offline  
Unread 26-05-2006, 10:40   #3
James Shields
Member
 
James Shields's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Drogheda, Ireland
Posts: 1,275
Default

Excellent. Just the sort of reasoned coverage we need.
James Shields is offline  
Unread 26-05-2006, 11:41   #4
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
Default

You would expect nothing less from Frank McDonald, solid researched piece with viewpoints from a wide number of people

A certain other newspaper could learn a thing or two about doing proper research and presenting an accurate account of the issues

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 26-05-2006 at 11:44.
Mark Gleeson is offline  
Unread 26-05-2006, 12:01   #5
Kevin K Kelehan
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: West Tower
Posts: 355
Default

Wouldn't it be great if everything he said wasn't true
Kevin K Kelehan is offline  
Unread 26-05-2006, 13:01   #6
Mark
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northern line
Posts: 1,311
Default

Two of those shortcomings in integration could be solved. Will they I wonder?
Mark is offline  
Unread 26-05-2006, 13:49   #7
James Shields
Member
 
James Shields's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Drogheda, Ireland
Posts: 1,275
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Two of those shortcomings in integration could be solved. Will they I wonder?
All of them could be solved if the will was there (with the possible exception of the Spencer Dock teporary station, and that could be mitegated by having the Interconnector ready as early as possible).

The O'Connell St Metro stop, could be integrated with Luas Red line by shifting the line east a little and putting the station directly under Abbey St. It would mean the station would have to be mined, though, which would add to the cost.

The Maynooth line connection is easily fixed, either by putting a mined station directly under Prospect, or more easily by moving it to Durmcondra.

And, of course, there's no sane reason not to make use of the Park Tunnel. All that would seem to be required is a connection from the Drumcondra line to the temporary station. This would add considerable value to the €30 million price tag for the temporary station.
James Shields is offline  
Unread 26-05-2006, 14:30   #8
Mark
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northern line
Posts: 1,311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostcarpark
The O'Connell St Metro stop, could be integrated with Luas Red line by shifting the line east a little and putting the station directly under Abbey St. It would mean the station would have to be mined, though, which would add to the cost.
No need to complicate things. Place the metro station under O'Connell Street between Abbey Street and Henry Street / Earl Street North (The Spire). With entrances at both ends and by moving the Luas line BX 'O'Connell Street' stop to the centre of the road above the metro station there would be ideal interchange between all three lines.

The only reason the metro station is outside the Gresham and not nearer Abbey Street is to accomodate the Tara Street/Tara/Trinity stop in the vicinity of the Screen cinema.
Mark is offline  
Unread 26-05-2006, 14:37   #9
Kevin K Kelehan
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: West Tower
Posts: 355
Default

Wouldn't the logical option be:

Station 1 Grafton Street from the Interconnector & Luas running down Grafton Street say as far as South Anne St

Station 2 O'Connell from Gresham to Abbey St

The distance between Abbey St and Bewleys is negligable to all except the infirm or incapicitated
Kevin K Kelehan is offline  
Unread 26-05-2006, 14:59   #10
Mark
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northern line
Posts: 1,311
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin K Kelehan
Wouldn't the logical option be:

Station 1 Grafton Street from the Interconnector & Luas running down Grafton Street say as far as South Anne St

Station 2 O'Connell from Gresham to Abbey St

The distance between Abbey St and Bewleys is negligable to all except the infirm or incapicitated

I have to say no, it wouldnt, however I do agree with dropping the middle station.

Are you advocating a 100m*50m metro station on Grafton Street? Levels arent accommodating there but think of the unneccessary disruption it would cause. The west side of St. Stephen's Green is the only logical location for the metro station in that area.

Once the middle station is removed the need for deviation is removed and thus the metro station can be placed at any point along O'Connell Street.

The gaps between St. Stephen's Green and the top of O'Connell Street could be filled by Luas line BX with stops at Dawson, Westmoreland, O'Connell Street (Outside Easons) and then at the top of O'Connell Street be it Rotunda, Parnell, Gresham or whatever.

I believe that placing the metro station nearest the red line would be the most logical. It is possible and the ideal location is between the red line and the spire.
Mark is offline  
Unread 26-05-2006, 16:40   #11
Colm Donoghue
Really Regular Poster
 
Colm Donoghue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 873
Default

Yeah,
the metro stop entranc on O'Connell st should be the minimum distance possible from the Luas on Abbey st. and the luas stop on O'Connel st i.e. on O'Connell st, outside the former AIB now a pub near Quinn Insurance, outside Supermacs, and two entrances further north on O'Connell st one east, one west

The Metro stop and Interconnector entrance on St Stephen's Green should be the minimum distance possible from the existing luas stop. i.e entrance in front of either abn ambro or the RCS

Anything else is arseboxing really. Building two new rail lines without tight integration is not on. Getting the underground entrance close is a must I think. I mean people think the dart and luas are connected at connolly because you go into Connolly up a flight of stairs. people don't think the luas and sherrif st are interconnected because you will have to walk outside (in the rain and cold) but it's about the same distance from platform 7.
Colm Donoghue is offline  
Unread 26-05-2006, 16:54   #12
craigybagel
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Wicklow Kilbarrack cork and all stations between
Posts: 74
Default

And as dodgy as connolly is at night its safer than walking down shefiff street. And o connell streets hardly the safest place either.How many people would want to walk down it at night to make their transfer.
craigybagel is offline  
Unread 27-05-2006, 10:38   #13
Maynooth_Line
Regular Poster
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 54
Default

In a lot of cities where there are metro systems there can be a long walk underground (often helped by travelators) between two different lines at the same station. But as colmd has already mentioned because you don't have to go outside it doesn't bother anyone.

If you're changing from metro to regional rail (eg. metro to RER in Paris) they have a special entrance for people coming from the metro. That seems to be what is being talked about for Stephen's Green but it is something they should consider doing at any points of interchange between different modes of transport.
Maynooth_Line is offline  
Unread 27-05-2006, 11:18   #14
James Shields
Member
 
James Shields's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Drogheda, Ireland
Posts: 1,275
Default

Quote:
In a lot of cities where there are metro systems there can be a long walk underground (often helped by travelators) between two different lines at the same station. But as colmd has already mentioned because you don't have to go outside it doesn't bother anyone.
That's all well and good if you're integrating lines that were built in the distant past, but we're building a new system, and if we design it right in the first place, we can have simple, effective integration from the start. If we design it wrong, we will spend years trying to patch it up.

At one stage we were going to have the Interconnector station on one corner of Stephen's Green and the Metro station on another, so you'd have to get the escalator to ground level, walk along one side of the Green and take the escalator back down. Fortunately some sense has been seen, and an integrated Stephen's Green station is now on the drawing board.

But the broader message hasn't sunk in yet. Anywhere that a new line crosses an existing one, we must have a single, well designed and integrated station. It's not an add-on or a nice-to-have, it's vital to the development of the city. If it's not possible at the easiest crossing point, move the new line until you find a workable crossing point. This is why most of P11 now seem to favour a Metro going via Drumcondra.
James Shields is offline  
Unread 27-05-2006, 12:17   #15
philip
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 632
Default

Even when lines were both built years apart they can manage to integrate them well in other countries. I think a great comparison with Drumcondra would be here at Partick in Glasgow. I've used it dozens of times and it's so handy to take a bus just as far as the station then take either the Underground or the Glasgow version of DART (Glasgow has the best suburban rail network in the UK outside London) to either Buchanan St or Glasgow Central (undergrond heavy rail station). Partick has one ticket office for both the Underground and for 'DART', despite the 'DART' being run by FirstScotRail and the Underground being run by Strathclyde Passenger Transport (the DTO with balls!!) themselves.
philip is offline  
Unread 30-05-2006, 06:20   #16
Navan Junction
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Navan
Posts: 305
Default [Irish Times letter] DUBLIN'S RAIL CONNECTIONS

Madam, - We welcome Frank McDonald's continued support for the underground DART interconnector (The Irish Times, May 26th). As well as dramatically improving the frequency and capacity on all Greater Dublin area rail lines, this will fully integrate all modes - Dart, Commuter, Intercity, Luas and Metro - into a cohesive network.

However, we would not agree that a "freestanding approach" is being taken to the various investment schemes, "hindering" integration.

The logical conclusion from the argument that integration is not being achieved between Iarnród Éireann and Railway Procurement Authority schemes under Transport 21, due to walking distances of up to 350 metres between modes, is that integration between rail modes barely exists anywhere in the world.

Such interchange distances - and indeed much longer distances in many cases - are extremely common internationally in systems which all observers would readily accept are integrated, such as London Underground, Paris Metro, and their linkages with wider commuter and inter-city rail travel. The high frequency and capacity of these systems ensures that usage is maximisedand that modest transfer distances do not discourage commuters from using public transport.

There is already heavy interchange of customers between Dart and Commuter services at Connolly Station and the Luas Red Line Connolly terminus, where the distance between the Dart/Commuter platforms and the Luas stop is similar to that being presented as some sort of drastic obstacle to integration at Docklands.

The location of our Docklands station, opening next year, will ensure easy interchange with the extended Luas Red Line and also allows services to continue operating while the underground Dart interconnector is constructed. The use of the Phoenix Park tunnel to Docklands for Kildare services would not add any capacity to the system, but would rather result in Kildare commuters taking longer to get to the city centre than they do currently, and prevent planned expansion in the Maynooth line and proposed Dunboyne/Pace line services.

Finally, we are working closely with the RPA to ensure our services integrate closely at all interchange points on the network being funded by Transport 21, including interchanges between the Maynooth commuter line and Metro North and Metro West and between the underground Dart interconnector and the Metro, Luas Red and Luas Green Lines. - Yours, etc,

BARRY KENNY, Manager, Corporate Communications, Iarnród Éireann, Connolly Station, Dublin 1.
Navan Junction is offline  
Unread 30-05-2006, 08:03   #17
philip
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 632
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinmeister
There is already heavy interchange of customers between Dart and Commuter services at Connolly Station and the Luas Red Line Connolly terminus, where the distance between the Dart/Commuter platforms and the Luas stop is similar to that being presented as some sort of drastic obstacle to integration at Docklands.
Connolly Station was built in the 1800's. There is an actual excuse for the distance there. The Docklands Station and Luas extension are to open within a year or two of each other on what was a brownfield site all owned by the people of Ireland under the 'care' of CIE properties.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spinmeister
The use of the Phoenix Park tunnel to Docklands for Kildare services would not add any capacity to the system, but would rather result in Kildare commuters taking longer to get to the city centre than they do currently, and prevent planned expansion in the Maynooth line and proposed Dunboyne/Pace line services.
Hold on a second? What's this fluffy nonsense? a fully grade segregated junction exists at Glasnevin. Trains from Kildare to Docklands via the PPT and Drumcondra would not interfere at all with trains from Maynooth rnning down the Midland. He's just making this stuff up.

....oh and Barry, if you're working so closely with the RPA you should really know that it stands for Railway Procurement Agency
philip is offline  
Unread 30-05-2006, 08:07   #18
Mark Gleeson
Technical Officer
 
Mark Gleeson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Coach C, Seat 33
Posts: 12,669
Default

I suddenly feel the urge to write a letter to a certain newspaper....
Mark Gleeson is offline  
Unread 30-05-2006, 08:09   #19
Mark
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Northern line
Posts: 1,311
Default

Marko get writing. That letter is a disgrace. You cant compare Dublin with London and Paris. Of course 100 year old metro systems are going to be ad hoc but we are building a new network from scratch so to speak and have no excuse not to get it right.

I wonder if the RP - Authority (Now thats funny!) will reply.
Mark is offline  
Unread 30-05-2006, 08:11   #20
PaulM
Really Regular Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 826
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson
I suddenly feel the urge to write a letter to a certain newspaper....
Please do! You're better at it than me.
PaulM is offline  
Closed Thread


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 21:28.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.