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Unread 08-05-2008, 09:18   #61
grainne whale
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Actually that's what is happening when they have ticket checkers at Heuston lately. Maybe then should recruit ticket checkers with good eyesight.
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Unread 08-05-2008, 10:19   #62
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I've travelled enough in the UK and exit barriers are popping up everywhere

Anyone who has been out the back entrance of Birmingham New Street will know all about the deck chairs and the small army of inspectors

The level of on train inspection is significantly greater than here, but fare evasion is always a problem

Even on a fully gated system like the Paris Metro I've been stopped within a station for my ticket

There is a much greater respect for authority and rules in Europe which means inspections are rarer but when they happen they are seriously heavy and random

In the 6 months after the exit gates went live in Connolly ticket revenue surged by 15%, the scale of evasion is obviously a problem
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Unread 08-05-2008, 12:21   #63
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Originally Posted by grainne whale View Post
It is obviously some time since you have travelled by train in UK or Europe, where from what I can see nobody evades train fare as there are checkers on board.
Two weeks ago actually. Nottingham station. Barrier staff and security staff. Three people being "encouraged" to pay for tickets as they were without as I exited the station. Part of problem as outlined in earlier post - open / unstaffed stations and insufficient time to check between all stations, or passengers not offeering to pay as conductor passes.

Same UK visit - train halted for 25 minutes at Chesterfield while police were called to remove a fare evader who had verbally abused, and threatened physical assault of, on-train conductor. It does happen.

Sorry to disabuse you....

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Unread 08-05-2008, 14:41   #64
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God only knows the places you visit, I have never ever had nor seen any hassle through out Europe or UK, only at Heuston Station in the mornings ie. 500 people herded through 1 exit by Irish Rail staff supported by these thugs. A better solution are validation machines, no one can pick a row with one!!!
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Unread 08-05-2008, 15:37   #65
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Originally Posted by grainne whale View Post
It is obviously some time since you have travelled by train in UK or Europe, where from what I can see nobody evades train fare as there are checkers on board. IR (management and some staff) are very confrontational as regards passengers, they do need to change their attitude, it's very much a them and us situation, they are lagging behind the rest of Europe by 15 years. I have yet to see thugs (Stasi) at any station in UK or Europe when disembanking from a train.
PS I mentioned that I was an annual ticket holder, just to put you at ease that I was not a fare evader.
I'm pretty certain that France (for example) has a much higher rate of fare evasion than Ireland. This is especially true on commuter services such as the metro and the RER where I would put fare evasion at anything between 33% and 50%. (In certain stations I got funny looks when I was buying a ticket). On SNCF trains it's not as high but it's still a big problem. On TGV's, you're 99.9% likely to be checked (I have traveled a few times on TGV without being checked). On regional trains, it's hit and miss. There is usually a controller on board, but they don't always check tickets. Again, I traveled quite a few times on regional trains without being checked.

You get the same "them and us" attitude over there as well. I did encounter some incredibly rude SNCF staff while in France, equally as rude as the IR equivalent. And while they might not have STS over there, they do have the amry patrolling alot of the major stations in France these days and I would find them more intimidating than STS.
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Unread 08-05-2008, 20:15   #66
Colm Donoghue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
In the 6 months after the exit gates went live in Connolly ticket revenue surged by 15%, the scale of evasion is obviously a problem
In the six months after the exit gates went live and revenue surged 15% and all passengers with valid tickets were inconvenienced particularly with irish rail's very poor annual ticket mag stripe system, How much did Irish rail reward their faithful customers by a price reduction? I must have missed that part of the equation.

All stick, no carrot
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Unread 08-05-2008, 20:34   #67
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Unread 09-05-2008, 08:13   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grainne whale View Post
God only knows the places you visit, I have never ever had nor seen any hassle through out Europe or UK, only at Heuston Station in the mornings ie. 500 people herded through 1 exit by Irish Rail staff supported by these thugs. A better solution are validation machines, no one can pick a row with one!!!
I quoted examples, and they are by no means isolated. Nottingham is a large city in the East Midlands of the UK; the Chesterfield incident was on an Arriva service from the north east to BIrmingham and beyond. True, you cannot "pick a row" with machines, but you can vault over the gates (seen Fenchurch St, London, in 2007). There also has to be a member of staff there in case tickets don't read correctly, or someone has luggage, or a pushchair, or is in a wheelchair. That person can be abused / threatened, and will often just let such people through rather than be attacked.

In the checks I have come across at Heuston, the main crush is caused by people rushing to be first off (the same as the rush for the car park at Newbrisge and Portarlington in the evening). I have strolled at a normal walking pace from the back of the train, and been delayed less than 30 seconds. That to me is acceptable. I also am gald that people are being forced to pay. There are many who try it on, and board the train without a ticket in the hope of getting away with it.

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Unread 09-05-2008, 08:18   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colm Donoghue View Post
In the six months after the exit gates went live and revenue surged 15% and all passengers with valid tickets were inconvenienced particularly with irish rail's very poor annual ticket mag stripe system, How much did Irish rail reward their faithful customers by a price reduction? I must have missed that part of the equation.

All stick, no carrot
On an annual ticket, you are already travelling at a substantial discount - that's the deal. If you are on taxsaver as well, especially on high rate, then the price is very low. Approx 1100 for Portarlington to Heuston, assuming 47 five day weeks, works out at around 6c/mile - and at peak times, with free travel at weekends and Bank Holidays thrown in.

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Unread 09-05-2008, 08:46   #70
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I don't think anyone on the board has a problem with ticket inspections, or is advocating people get away with not buying a ticket. The issue is the way IE have gone about it. Forcing large amounts of people through 1 or 2 ticket machines, or forcing people in/out of a station through a single access point is just not customer friendly. How many stations do you have to cross to the other side of the tracks to buy a ticket/enter the platform? How many stations can you only get out of by going through an exit on the opposite side of the station than you want to be?

I don't buy the argument that it's not possible to do on board ticket checks even on full trains. Sure at crush load it's an issue, but these trains are becoming less and less, and this is IEs fault, NOT the customers.

I think in Ireland we're still stuck with the mentality that we're lucky to have crowded & hot trains, rude staff, decrepit stations and to be treated like animals, rather than have nothing at all.
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Unread 09-05-2008, 08:51   #71
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The rest of us like to be at work on time, people rush as they are not sure if there will be a bus or luas available. I do resent being herded into a confined area when these checks are taking place. One woman recently fell over and broke her wrist in the crush.
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Unread 09-05-2008, 11:27   #72
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Originally Posted by grainne whale View Post
The rest of us like to be at work on time, people rush as they are not sure if there will be a bus or luas available. I do resent being herded into a confined area when these checks are taking place. One woman recently fell over and broke her wrist in the crush.
So do I - so I get a train that gives me time to do so (0640 or 0706, rather than 0730 which would just about get me in on time most days, but tight). Both bus and LUAS leave frequently from outside Heuston - not an issue. I suspect cycling might be more reliable and quicker, but I haven't tried that.

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Unread 09-05-2008, 11:40   #73
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[quote=al2637;33122]

I don't buy the argument that it's not possible to do on board ticket checks even on full trains. Sure at crush load it's an issue, but these trains are becoming less and less, and this is IEs fault, NOT the customers.

[quote]


OK. Train calls at Hazelhatch bound for Heuston. Say 150 get on, maybe 50 without tickets. Journey time to Heuston about 15-20 minutes (I know its scheduled for more, but that includes time for engineering works and time recovery). Season ticket check 10 seconds per person (say 70 of them). Ticket stamping 15 seconds per person (say 30 of them). 50 ticket issues at about 90 seconds each - and that's if they have their money ready, know what they want and don't require change. That's 94 minutes. Even with the worst of Heuston line delays, that is impractical. That is why people don't buy tickets - they know they have a good chance of getting away with it. That is why the barrier checks are necessary.

To forestall the next comment, put more checkers on - what would they do the rest of the day? And how much would it cost?

LC
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Unread 09-05-2008, 11:53   #74
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I beg your pardon, the VAST majority of passengers at Hazelhatch have tickets, Patricia (the station master) sees to that. Please stop making sweeping statements. Now really, you are talking through your hat !!

Last edited by grainne whale : 09-05-2008 at 12:08.
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Unread 09-05-2008, 11:53   #75
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Exactly, more ticket checkers, like it is done in the rest of the world. Also, it should take less than 5 seconds to actually check each persons ticket... just a quick check of the route/date.

The rest of the day they CONTINUE to check tickets on all services. As I said, over here (Nederlands), you will ahve 1-2 ticket checkers getting on at every door to the carriage - 3-4 doors. They will also usually be accompanied by a police officer/transport police (armed!!). I've seen this at peak time in the morning then the metro is full, and at 10am on a Sunday morning... ticket checkers should be working the full hours that the system is operational.

The result is that most people know they are likley to get caught if they don't have a ticket.

As for cost, why not just take all the pepole that IR have standing around checking tickets and make them mobile! Put them on the trains instead of at a gate! Or increase the level of fine to make it 1. cover some of the cost, 2. further deter people from trying it!

To play devils advocate, would you support the closing off of Luas platforms so that everyone was hearded in/out through a single entrance?
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Unread 09-05-2008, 11:57   #76
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luas ticket checking is high profile and done very often it seems to work well.
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Unread 09-05-2008, 11:57   #77
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Quote:
50 ticket issues at about 90 seconds each
I don't get this bit.
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Unread 09-05-2008, 12:12   #78
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luas ticket checking is high profile and done very often it seems to work well.
That's right its a pity IR would not take a leaf out of their book instead of demeaning passengers the way they normally do. No need for the Stasi on the Luas.
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Unread 09-05-2008, 16:38   #79
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LUAS is much lower capacity - hence fewer to check, and has a lot more windows which make ticket inspectors a lot more visible
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Unread 09-05-2008, 16:49   #80
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From my own experience the Luas guys never get on trans they can walk around.

Their new tactic is to pretend to board the tram and then ask the people on the platform for a ticket.
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