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Unread 26-04-2008, 00:59   #1
Colm Moore
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Default Change to Credit/Debit Usage at Luas Ticket Machines

http://www.luas.ie/ul/245.pdf
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CHANGE TO CREDIT/DEBIT USAGE AT LUAS TICKET MACHINES

From Monday April 28th Luas customers will only be able to use Credit/Debit Cards for transactions from 5 to 50 at Luas Ticket Machines.

The Luas Ticket Machines were purchased in 2002 before the current Financial Industry Standards (Chip & Pin) were introduced. Restricting Credit/Debit Card transactions to under 50 is an interim measure to enhance security for Credit/Debit Card users. RPA are in the process of securing an upgrade of Luas Ticket Machines to Chip & Pin Technology. It is hoped that this will be installed before the end of 2008.

Tickets bought from Luas Ticket Agents and cash transactions at the Luas Ticket Machines are not affected. Click here for a list of Luas Ticket Agents.
A complete list is also on the Stop Notice board at each stop or by Freephone 1800 300 604.

RPA and Veolia regret any inconvenience which customers may experience. This change is necessary to bring the system into line with the current Financial Industry Standard and best international practice.

For further information:
www.luas.ie info@luas.ie 1800 300 604
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Unread 26-04-2008, 14:00   #2
chris
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About time some restrictions were introduced to be honest. I worked part time in a petrol station last summer and we would frequently have 20-30-40 credit cards that people had forgotten in the chip and pin machines. It would have been amazingly easy to use these in the LUAS machines
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Unread 26-04-2008, 14:14   #3
packetswitch
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Any chance that debit cards (AIB Maestro in particular) will start to work? Or is that too much to hope for?
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Unread 28-04-2008, 08:54   #4
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And like Chip and Pin has only just been introduced. So if I want a monthly all-zones, I now need to carry over 70 cash to a machine, or $60 to a shop? Farcical.

LC
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Unread 28-04-2008, 10:47   #5
Mark Hennessy
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2 points, addressed by both posters above:

You can't buy something like a 30 day ticket by Credit/Debit card?
Is this some kind of practical joke from the RPA?
Whats the point of offering these facilities if you can't buy the most expensive tickets from them?
How long will customers have to wait for the chip and pin to be introduced?

The AIB debit card never works.
Agree completely, both that and the AIB student mastercard have never worked for me.

Last edited by Mark Hennessy : 28-04-2008 at 10:54.
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Unread 28-04-2008, 20:18   #6
Thomas Ralph
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You have to go to a retail store to buy tickets costing over 50 by card (and the Luas-only ones are cheaper that way anyway).

I agree it's complete nonsense and the machines should have been built with PIN verification in mind. Veolia can already have any transaction charged back to them on a customer's say-so because they aren't using PIN verification. It's not as much a complete nonsense as Veolia trying to cover their own backs they can accept any transaction they feel like but all the customer has to do is say "didn't buy it bud" to their bank and the money's back.
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Unread 28-04-2008, 22:11   #7
Colm Moore
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Eh, is a monthly ticket linked to a specific ID card?
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Unread 29-04-2008, 00:56   #8
Mark Gleeson
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yup

the simplest solution is to permit one ticket sale per month for a value over 50 euro, to allow for the monthly ticket.

The current setup allows me to buy literally thousands of weekly tickets, spending thousands yet one simple monthly ticket they are worried about
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Unread 29-04-2008, 17:51   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
the simplest solution is to permit one ticket sale per month for a value over 50 euro, to allow for the monthly ticket.
One ticket per card per month? That'd require storing card details which would violate the Data Protection Act.
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Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
The current setup allows me to buy literally thousands of weekly tickets, spending thousands yet one simple monthly ticket they are worried about
After three or four transactions from the same location in short succession most banks would block the card (assuming that the TVM didn't reject it for the same reason).
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Unread 29-04-2008, 20:07   #10
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I'm pretty sure it wouldn't violate the Act if done properly. I can only use my card to top up my Northern sim card a few times per month. Any more and O2 steps in to say it's not allowed-it doesn't even get as far as authorisation with the bank. If it doesn't vioate the British Act, then it probably doesn't violate ours - we usually copy their acts. As long as Veolia were clear in their T&Cs what data they were storing and why, I can't see why there should be a problem. Saying that, I haven't read that Act and have to defer to TJ Stamp
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Unread 29-04-2008, 21:42   #11
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I don't think the DPA says anything about credit cards but PCI regulations definitely would. Storing credit card numbers beyond billing and processing is a big no no. There are ways around it though but at the end of the day, putting a pinpad on the TVMs would be a much better, simpler and more reliable solution.
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Unread 29-04-2008, 22:10   #12
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Putting a pin pad outside is a bit dodgy for a number of reasons.

1. Pinpads aren't supposed to get wet
2. Cards aren't supposed to get that wet
3. Electrical devices like pinpads aren't supposed to operate at low temperatures
4. If it sticks out (as it presumably will), people will whack into it and break it off, especially at the busy stops on the red line, which serve a dual function as pavements.

I presume reasons like this are why they weren't there in the first place, but I agree Veolia have to find a way around it. If they can have ATMs outside, there should be some way to downsize. Anyone know how other cities do this?
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Unread 29-04-2008, 22:24   #13
Mark Gleeson
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What you do is update the magstripe reader to read the chip, been done on many atms

Then use the touch screen as the input for the pin, IE have a nice on screen keypad for entry of id numbers and reservation numbers
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Unread 29-04-2008, 23:44   #14
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Thanks for that Mark.

They'd need to keep the onscreen keypad small to protect security
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Unread 30-04-2008, 18:45   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
What you do is update the magstripe reader to read the chip, been done on many atms
That's doable.
Quote:
Then use the touch screen as the input for the pin, IE have a nice on screen keypad for entry of id numbers and reservation numbers
That violates IPSO rules.
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I don't think the DPA says anything about credit cards
Did you click on the link at all?
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Unread 01-05-2008, 00:36   #16
Colm Moore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris View Post
Putting a pin pad outside is a bit dodgy for a number of reasons.
...
4. If it sticks out (as it presumably will), people will whack into it and break it off, especially at the busy stops on the red line, which serve a dual function as pavements.
...
If they can have ATMs outside, there should be some way to downsize. Anyone know how other cities do this?
I imagine a keypad similar to those on ATMs can be retro-fitted so that it is more or less flush with the face give or take 2mm.
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Unread 01-05-2008, 10:16   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post
I imagine a keypad similar to those on ATMs can be retro-fitted so that it is more or less flush with the face give or take 2mm.
Given the ridiculous amount of space those things take up, I imagine you're probably right. There must be a lot of empty space inside them
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Unread 01-05-2008, 20:33   #18
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[quote=tralph;32819]You have to go to a retail store to buy tickets costing over 50 by card (and the Luas-only ones are cheaper that way anyway).

QUOTE]

And you're going to be really popular trying to buy a LUAS ticket by card in the middle of the morning rush at a newagents. Oh, and they don't take Amex. So tough, customers.

As I said - farcical.

LC
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Unread 01-05-2008, 20:39   #19
Thomas Ralph
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Quote:
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I imagine a keypad similar to those on ATMs can be retro-fitted so that it is more or less flush with the face give or take 2mm.
Yes, should not be much of a problem. TFL did it for chip/PIN rollout without hassle.
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Unread 05-05-2008, 20:54   #20
Colm Donoghue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tralph View Post
Yes, should not be much of a problem. TFL did it for chip/PIN rollout without hassle.
Every retailer in the country managed... maybe the rpa were too busy explaining why 30m trams on the red line were good enough, or maybe they signed an amazingly bad contract with veolia that it makes sense to not accept payment instead of upgrading the machines....
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