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Unread 09-05-2008, 17:50   #81
Colm Moore
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Originally Posted by plant43 View Post
You get the same "them and us" attitude over there as well. I did encounter some incredibly rude SNCF staff while in France, equally as rude as the IR equivalent. And while they might not have STS over there, they do have the amry patrolling alot of the major stations in France these days and I would find them more intimidating than STS.
These were probably CRS, not army. Its not uncommon to see them in public places, with rifles or sub-machineguns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagn...9curit%C3%A 9
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Unread 09-05-2008, 23:35   #82
Ronald Binge
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It's not hard to get a solution to this.

Firstly, when getting off the train bear right to the checker. Have your ticket in your hand ready to be inspected. That way you don't have to look at the "stasi".

Secondly, what is to stop Irish Rail organising Revenue Protection squads? A gang of four or five checkers will get through a southwestern commuter train a lot quicker than a single conductor/guard.

Thirdly, there really should be barriers at Heuston and Pearse similar to the barriers at Connolly and Docklands.

Fourthly, I get a lot more pissed off at fare bunkers than I do at looking at security guards in the morning. The more people bunk their fares the more expensive my annual ticket is going to be next year.
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Unread 10-05-2008, 08:22   #83
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Originally Posted by CSL View Post
luas ticket checking is high profile and done very often it seems to work well.
I would argue with the "very often" part. I'm sure someone can come up with an exact number but I find maybe 10% of journeys are inspected. They also don't get on trams that they can't walk through.
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Unread 10-05-2008, 08:23   #84
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Originally Posted by Mark Hennessy View Post
From my own experience the Luas guys never get on trans they can walk around.

Their new tactic is to pretend to board the tram and then ask the people on the platform for a ticket.
Do they have the right to ask people on the platform for a ticket? I'm not in the mood to look up the light rail bylaws, it's too early
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Unread 10-05-2008, 09:07   #85
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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
These were probably CRS, not army. Its not uncommon to see them in public places, with rifles or sub-machineguns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compagn...9curit%C3%A 9
No, they were definitely from the army.
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Unread 10-05-2008, 13:05   #86
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Personally, I think CIE in general is fixated on putting passengers through gates and herding them around like sheep.

On Iarnrod Eireann we've ridiculous levels of ticket checking instead e.g. take a Cork-Dublin train and you'll be forced to queue for a good 20 mins for no apparent reason. Then your ticket's checked, punched etc and then when you're on board it's checked again!

Wouldn't an on-board check suffice ? If you don't have a valid ticket, huge standard fare fine and kicked off at the next stop.

On DART it's like they want to just create chaos at the busiest city centre stations at rush hour. Why not have proper working entry barriers at stations in the suburbs and that way people wouldn't be getting in with out tickets in the first place.

Couple this with random checks and it should be fine.

As it stands they're creating major crushes at Connolly, Pearse, Heuston etc at rush hour.

Also, where they're herding people into 'pens' they really should be aware of the potential for law suit if someone falls or is crushed. I'd say if they do find someone's fallen as a result they could be faced with a very hefty legal bill as.

As for CIE operated busses (Dublin Bus / Bus Eireann City/Commuter services) - same fixation with door-based ticket checking / purchasing.
The amount of time wasted at bus stops while people hunt for change etc is ridiculous. It's actually causing traffic jams in many areas where there aren't dedicated bus lanes. Boarding a bus shouldn't be any more complex than boarding a Luas tram.
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Unread 10-05-2008, 17:13   #87
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Originally Posted by MrX View Post
Personally, I think CIE in general is fixated on putting passengers through gates and herding them around like sheep

On Iarnrod Eireann we've ridiculous levels of ticket checking instead e.g. take a Cork-Dublin train and you'll be forced to queue for a good 20 mins for no apparent reason.
There is a reason, however it may not be apparent. The train comes in at around xx:40, cleaner has to go through to pick up anything you didn't give them while you were on the train, and then safety checks and door checks etc. Most trains start boarding at xx:05 or xx:10 for a xx:30 departure.
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Then your ticket's checked, punched etc and then when you're on board it's checked again!
Yes, usually between Thurles and Heuston. The only station on the way up where there are ticket gates is Limerick Junction, so it's not outside the bounds of possibilities for a ticketless passenger to have got on the train in the meantime.
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Originally Posted by MrX View Post
Wouldn't an on-board check suffice ? If you don't have a valid ticket, huge standard fare fine and kicked off at the next stop.
See above. Anyway there are plenty of circumstances where a person may legitimately not have a valid ticket and needs the ticket checker to get to them.
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Originally Posted by MrX View Post
On DART it's like they want to just create chaos at the busiest city centre stations at rush hour.
Well, it stands to reason that there will be most passengers at the busiest stations. I wouldn't say it's chaotic, though. Generally at the stations with exit validation there's a defined set of "in" barriers and a defined set of "out" barriers at peak time to avoid people running into each other.
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Originally Posted by MrX View Post
Why not have proper working entry barriers at stations in the suburbs and that way people wouldn't be getting in with out tickets in the first place.
Because then they could get on at Greystones with a ticket to Bray and travel up to Connolly. When the fare isn't a flat per-journey (like for example the New York subway) checks at both ends are needed.
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Originally Posted by MrX View Post
Couple this with random checks and it should be fine.
I've had my ticket checked on board a DART a grand total of once in the year and eight months I've been living in Dublin. It's already laughably easy to fare-evade on the DART (between the right stations) and I don't think IÉ has the staff for this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrX View Post

As it stands they're creating major crushes at Connolly, Pearse, Heuston etc at rush hour.

Also, where they're herding people into 'pens' they really should be aware of the potential for law suit if someone falls or is crushed. I'd say if they do find someone's fallen as a result they could be faced with a very hefty legal bill as.

As for CIE operated busses (Dublin Bus / Bus Eireann City/Commuter services) - same fixation with door-based ticket checking / purchasing.
To be honest it's not really a major issue on Dublin Bus from my experience. Most people are using prepaid tickets anyway. And I don't think the Department of Transport is going to tender for 6,000 ticket machines to sit at bus stops.
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Originally Posted by MrX View Post
The amount of time wasted at bus stops while people hunt for change etc is ridiculous. It's actually causing traffic jams in many areas where there aren't dedicated bus lanes. Boarding a bus shouldn't be any more complex than boarding a Luas tram.
The Luas is certainly Dublin transport's success story. Maybe when integrated ticketing comes in, it'll all be better...
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Unread 11-05-2008, 21:38   #88
Colm Moore
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Do they have the right to ask people on the platform for a ticket? I'm not in the mood to look up the light rail bylaws, it's too early
One would have to check, but the platforms are RPA property, not part of the street.
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Unread 12-05-2008, 07:29   #89
Mark Gleeson
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True but they physically can't stop you walking away
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Unread 12-05-2008, 15:41   #90
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Plus how can they prove you were on the Luas? You don't have to buy a ticket to stand on the platform. Letter in this morning's Metro* from someone who was asked on the platform for the ticket they had just thrown away, issued with a fine, got a letter done up by a legal friend and sent in, Veolia dropped the fine.

*obviously, not accepting this as gospel
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Unread 12-05-2008, 16:13   #91
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One would have to check, but the platforms are RPA property, not part of the street.
What about a situation like Jervis, where the platform takes up the entire width of the footpath?
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Unread 12-05-2008, 17:18   #92
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Plus how can they prove you were on the Luas?
CCTV?
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Unread 12-05-2008, 21:08   #93
Colm Donoghue
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Originally Posted by Ronald Binge View Post

Fourthly, I get a lot more pissed off at fare bunkers than I do at looking at security guards in the morning. The more people bunk their fares the more expensive my annual ticket is going to be next year.
Except this is not the case. as MarkG pointed out revenue went up 15% and ticket prices went the same direction.
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Unread 12-05-2008, 21:22   #94
Mark Gleeson
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Well 15% increase in revenue above expected growth in 6 months, fare increase this year was under 5%

Problem is IE's approach means the bulk are getting away since no resources are targeted at the problems, remember Irish Rail staff need to work as massive group or else they feel lonely

A certain Irish Rail manager now in charge somewhere in London made the very simple move (complying with rule one of trying to run a railway) to staff every booking office all day, anti social problems reduced, fare evasion down, revenue up and passenger numbers up all within 6 months

I don't like the STT guys, the dark uniform and lack of any visible ID isn't on, they have to produce there private security id upon request but if you find yourself with a knee in the back on the floor fat lot of good its going to be

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 12-05-2008 at 21:31.
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Unread 13-05-2008, 10:51   #95
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It is actually a paramilitary uniform, we have Group 4 security where I work, but they just wear a normal jacket/ trousers/ work shoes. Security is not high profile here but it is very effective. In Heuston the Stasi are very intimidating, really very tuggish looking, probably former soldiers!!
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Unread 13-05-2008, 18:53   #96
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Originally Posted by tralph View Post
Do they have the right to ask people on the platform for a ticket? I'm not in the mood to look up the light rail bylaws, it's too early
To answer my own question, the light rail by-laws say that it's an offence not to produce a ticket to an authorised person on request, but you are only liable to pay the standard fare if you are "on a light rail vehicle without a valid ticket", and CSOs can't detain you, although a Garda can. (See sections 66-67 of the Transport (Railway Infrastructure) Act, 2001.) Usual IANAL disclaimers apply.
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Unread 05-07-2008, 00:07   #97
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Compared railways around most of Europe, Irish Rail really do have an obsession with barriers and gates.

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Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp View Post
No, only the gardai have power of arrest, and even then an arrest has to be lawful. I successfully defended a case last week on the absence of a lawfull arrest by a member of the gardai. Your liberty can only be taken away in accordance with law, as per the consitution, and this is strictly construed by the courts.

There is no such thing as a citizens arrest, although the chances of you being summonsed for it are virtualy nil.
What's this then?...

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/...4/sec0004.html
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