Urban (Rural) Myth or could this really happen?

[comcor]

Irish Rail Flag men & the ghost trains of West Cork

Heard a great story recently about an electrical contractor commissioned to do work in West Cork putting lines across mountainous areas for a wind farm company. Planning these things can be a nightmare as the permission of each land owner has to be granted as well as a fee agreed for each piece of land. Often this decends into farce with farmers forcing huge fees for working on disused land but little did they think it would be a state owned body that would top the farce list.

Basically they needed to go across a short tract of land still owned by Irish Rail. The field was part of the old West Cork railway line. The company involved had agreed everything with Irish Rail and a date was set for the work to start. On the first morning the contractors arrived and some Irish Rail workers were present (as is normal for any authority like the County Council) but they refused to allow the contractor to turn a sod until "the flag man" arrived.

”..but lads there’s no railway tracks not to mind a train.Why do we need a flag man?!”
”All work carried out on Irish Rail lands must have a flag man present.”
”You’re taking the piss!”.
”Sorry boy, union rules”.

So they had to wait for yer man who turned up after a few hours and sat in a van the whole time!

"We’re not there yet but we’re getting there. "

How plausible is this story?

[Mark Gleeson]

All sites of work must have a look out with a flag, they are the rules, it might be crazy but its fully possible that there is no formal exception written into the rule book for lifted lines, bare in mind IE don't own many lifted allignments

You will find the rule book insists that work can't commence until someone suitably quailfied is on site

[grainne whale]

This whole senario is like something you would see on Monty Python

[Oisin88]

How do you "qualify" as a flag man.

Is it a Certificate, Diploma or maybe a degree?

[zag]

The flagman requirement is somewhat understandable, in a dynamic, fast moving network kind of way where there might be the possibility of an existing decommisioned line having a trial run over it, but where there's no track at all . . .

Of course, having a single flagman where (in theory, assuming tracks) a train could approach from two directions is of limited use.

And even then, having the single flagman sit in the van adds nothing to the potential safety level. The least he could do is go sit on the 'line' a few miles out to wave down and approaching high speed locos.

z

[sean]

well put,

it does sound ridiculous all right, christ it's not like there's actually going to be a train coming ...

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

All sites of work must have a look out with a flag, they are the rules, it might be crazy but its fully possible that there is no formal exception written into the rule book for lifted lines, bare in mind IE don't own many lifted alignments

You will find the rule book insists that work can't commence until someone suitably qualified is on site

This is, IMHO, the difference between the public and private sector. Who cares what the rule book says? The IR employees should have looked around, showed just a little bit of initiative and decided that chance of a train coming sailing round the mountains on non-existent track was unlikely and let the contractor do his work without resorting to hiding behind the rule book. It's this kind of 'by the book, no room for flexibility' thinking that drags IR down.

Yes, it's a sweeping generalisation

[PaulM]

Markpb, once again I am in strong agreement with you.

Who wrote the rule book? When was it written? I have heard of too many IE documents and books that effectively excuse their dreadful behaviour.

My opinion is that just because it is correct by the book, it does not make it correct. This story is a shining example of it.

I wonder if the rule book says that ticket checkers must check tickets....

[Mark Gleeson]

The rule book is not written for this scenario, fine but its a set of rules and rules are to be followed.

Lax proceedures and lack of attention to detail came up again and again in the safety audits, new training proceedures with a emphasis on compliance followed

Until there is a supervisor on site nothing happens, doesn't matter what business you are in there is a responsible person

Agreeded proceedure is to be followed, what should have happened in this case is the district engineer should have issued a notice on the manpower needed and the local proceedure (which can contradict the rules) and should have attended on the first morning to confirm but someone of a supervisory standing would still have to attend at all times which is what appeared to happen

[Derek Wheeler]

Yes, it's a sweeping generalisation

And a damn good one.

Mark G, quit while your nose is in front, the term used was "flag man" not "supervisor". Flag men work in areas of traffic movement. The only things moving in this west Cork scenario, were the bowels of nearby sheep.

Its rediculous, but believable. Can we confirm the story and source please?

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Originally Posted by markpb

This is, IMHO, the difference between the public and private sector. Who cares what the rule book says? The IR employees should have looked around, showed just a little bit of initiative and decided that chance of a train coming sailing round the mountains on non-existent track was unlikely and let the contractor do his work without resorting to hiding behind the rule book. It's this kind of 'by the book, no room for flexibility' thinking that drags IR down.

Yes, it's a sweeping generalisation

but it is bang on the money.

[PaulM]

Originally Posted by Paul Mulcahy

I wonder if the rule book says that ticket checkers must check tickets....

Anyone care to answer this?

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Paul Mulcahy

I wonder if the rule book says that ticket checkers must check tickets....

Assuming you're talking about the monkeys in Connolly, nope. They're probably customer service reps instead of ticket checks - a role with no actual job spec which allows them to stand under the heater, examine the odd ticket for exiting customers and let hundreds of entering customers bypass the ticket checking machine while also getting in the way of the exiting customers.

[PaulM]

Originally Posted by markpb

Assuming you're talking about the monkeys in Connolly, nope. They're probably customer service reps instead of ticket checks - a role with no actual job spec which allows them to stand under the heater, examine the odd ticket for exiting customers and let hundreds of entering customers bypass the ticket checking machine while also getting in the way of the exiting customers.

Forgetting their title. I wonder if the rule book states that tickets must be checked on exit or anything along those lines. I would imagine there are plenty of examples of rules being broken, namely ones that involve working. Of course if the rule book states that you have to take a 15 minutes break every 10 minutes, you can be sure that would be followed.

[Thomas J Stamp]

I havent looked at the board in a good while and the first thing I see is this.

Jesus feckin Christ.

I suppose this is the proper thread to ask this question, which I'm sick of being asked:

Is it true that drivers/guards/people who work on trains still get a coal man's allowance?

Just to keep my happy day going.

[Colm Donoghue]

Originally Posted by markpb

This is, IMHO, the difference between the public and private sector. Who cares what the rule book says? The IR employees should have looked around, showed just a little bit of initiative and decided that chance of a train coming sailing round the mountains on non-existent track was unlikely and let the contractor do his work without resorting to hiding behind the rule book. It's this kind of 'by the book, no room for flexibility' thinking that drags IR down.

Yes, it's a sweeping generalisation

Another difference is that nobody's died in an accident on the public sector run IE in a while whereas the privately run british rail system is a bit different...

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by colmd

Another difference is that nobody's died in an accident on the public sector run IE in a while whereas the privately run british rail system is a bit different...

You sure about that? I seem to remember a lad who got crushed during a shunting exercise in the last few years, and there have been plenty of passenger deaths.

[Derek Wheeler]

This thread has gone AWOL. Im lost and not appearing in any episode.