Why no trains after 7?

[Padraic]

A friend of mine here in London just got back from Ireland. Apparently she and her boyfriend turned up at Heuston station one evening last week trying to get a train to Kilkenny. They turned up just before 7pm to be told the last train to Kilkenny had left. They ended up staying the night in Dublin before catching the train in the morning.

In this day and age I find this incredible.

What is stopping Iarnrod Eireann from running at least an hourly service from Dublin to Waterford up to maybe 11pm at night? Surely these antiquated timetables should be consigned to the dustbin - ?

[packetswitch]

Here's another one. The last train to anywhere in Wicklow/Wexford south of Greystones (i.e. both 'commuter' and 'long-distance' elements of the Rosslare line), leaves Dublin at 6.30pm. Which, in many cases, is far too early.

(Yet a train now leaves Gorey at 6am, so why not run a service that leaves Dublin at 9pm and goes at least to Gorey, I presume it has to be positioned somehow?)

[Mark Gleeson]

Irish Rail refuse to consider later trains. We went through this with Port Laois last year which would have the highest demand. Though when the new maintenance facility opens there will be services late into the evening to Port Laois to shuttle the trains around

The real issue is to operate to Gorey/Longford/Killkenny later than now would require the train to stay overnight and since they are staffed by Dublin drivers that won't happen, they all return in service to Dublin that night. We had the farce of sticking the drivers for the morning Longford trains in a taxi from Connolly a few years ago, it took years to fix

Word is a later train to Gorey is likely but depends on staff being based there. In general later trains out of Heuston station are off the agenda until at least 2009 as many evening trains will be cancelled on and off while the 4 track project is ongoing to Hazelhatch

Last train to Carlow is 20:05, Killkenny is over 80 miles from Dublin many places a lot closer have no service after 6:35pm so its not on the priority list, in fact it would be bad idea in transport planning to further encourage long distance commuting

[packetswitch]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

in fact it would be bad idea in transport planning to further encourage long distance commuting

Much as I'd like to agree, I think that ship has sailed. Long-distance commuting is a reality and until they start blowing up motorways (or bringing down Dublin prices), it's not going away. Commuters live in Portlaoise/Arklow/etc, we can hardly tell them that they have lots of shiny new roads but we can't give them trains because that would encourage commuting

[Mark Gleeson]

Portlaoise/Arklow/etc,

are 50 miles out, Killkenny is 80 miles out there is a difference

Further out you go the more inefficient the service becomes, then you reach a point where the very long distance demand faster trains and fewer stops which in turn saps precious capacity from the higher density commuting stations

[Gary]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The real issue is to operate to Gorey/Longford/Killkenny later than now would require the train to stay overnight and since they are staffed by Dublin drivers that won't happen, they all return in service to Dublin that night. We had the farce of sticking the drivers for the morning Longford trains in a taxi from Connolly a few years ago, it took years to fix

Could they not just return the train to dublin, empty if needs be?

[Mark Gleeson]

Most come back in service now, but if they left Dublin later they get back later, on the Kildare line the line may be closed for engineering works

On the Gorey route train would come back empty to Drogheda and then go Drogheda Gorey at 4am, logical solution is to leave the train overnight and have a local driver to drive avoiding the massive round trips, also means the morning service is much more reliable and slashes costs which is the key reason the service doesn't exist now

There are no drivers in Gorey or Killkenny and those in Portlaois are not on the passenger roster

[Colm Donoghue]

The fact Irish rail have no drivers shouldn't be our problem.
it's bad enough they don't have enough trains.

for example, the last train to Galway tonight is at five past seven.
The last BE bus is at nine, the last citilink is at 10 o' clock.

BE go to kilkenny at 20:30 so there is demand.

[Mark Gleeson]

Well its the reality and it takes 24 months to sort. We know the issues so we can cut through the first level of obstruction IE will place in our path. Public have a right to know the real reasons not the usual lack of demand excuse. That said you need to be looking at least 50 per train to make a case

Secondary problem is the train that left at 6pm has to travel so far to the far reaches of the commuter belts that they can't get back to run a usable later service, thats a serious issue. So if a train travels 10 miles less it can be back 20 minutes earlier that also has shift length implications and so on

And we all know of the lack of rolling stock, again IE try to hide from this but the proof is there

They have totally missed the social change of the last 10 years but I would argue that its places such as Wicklow, Arklow, Mullingar, Port Laois (within the 30-50 mile ring) should be priorities for later services and that extreme long distance commuting (+50miles) should be actively discouraged. Doing so provides an enhanced service to the busier closer to Dublin area, better use of resources etc

[Derek Wheeler]

As much as we all appreciate Marks great knowledge of railway matters, Im afraid I cannot agree with him on this issue.

1. Long distance commuting is a fact of life.
2. Later trains are not just for the benefit of commuters. They should be for the benefit of a society that is open longer hours.
3. IEs timetable is victorian and based on a working system that was devised eons ago and has no place in 21st century society.
4. If all goes according to plan in 2015, you can get off a Mick O'Leary transatlantic flight in Dublin airport at 7pm. Take a Metro to Stephens Green and then a DART to Heuston, only to discover that the last train to Waterford is long gone.

However Mark is correct about the reasons. But then this just goes to demonstrate how backward and unambitious IE are. DB lead the change with nitelink and now BE have joined the club with Niterider. Luas has also got in on the action. I spent many years running for the last DART before the pubs shut. The last time was 17 years ago. It would be the same today if I had to do it. I travelled to Galway on a friday quite a bit. Last train used to be 18.45. Today its 19.05. Not much of a difference.

Commuter services need late night at weekends. Intercity services on most routes need to have the last service between 8 - 10. They have enough trains to do it, if asset wsweating is applied. They just don't want the hassle, because remember this and don't let anyone tell you any different, IE management run our railway for their own benefit and not ours.

You can tell its run by men. They cant multitask. Time to send in the women.

[Padraic]

Yes, I fully agree that long distance commuting is with us for the forseeable future and simply stopping trains after 7pm to discourage it is going to do nothing of the sort.

People will simply get into their cars and go home that way. It is incredible that our national railway simply goes to bed after tea - compare that with practice elsewhere in Europe and even on our own doorstep in Northern Ireland...

Here in London many thousands of people make a daily roundtrip of 200 miles by train and think nothing of it. If the British TOCs decided to shut down after 7pm to discourage long distance commuting this city would grind to a halt with gridlocked traffic.

It's high time those who manage our railway started thinking on a strategic basis rather on the basis of "this is how we have always done it and we don't want the NBRU getting upset either"...

[Oisin88]

Originally Posted by colmd

The fact Irish rail have no drivers shouldn't be our problem.
it's bad enough they don't have enough trains.

for example, the last train to Galway tonight is at five past seven.
The last BE bus is at nine, the last citilink is at 10 o' clock.

BE go to kilkenny at 20:30 so there is demand.

Bus Eireann have started to put on some very late services, like the ones to Letterkenny leaving as late as 10:45pm through the airport.

http://www.buseireann.ie/site/your_j...sway/32new.pdf

Also, I wonder will there be any changes to operating hours from benchmarking. The last round of benchmarking pay was dependent on public servants demonstrating more flexibility, which has meant that some grades e.g. radiologists in hospitals, have changed working hours.

[apwhite]

Public transport should not be used as a political instrument. Whether it encourages "Long distance commuting" or not is irrelevant. We are not back in communist central planning mode here. If there is enough demand, then run it.

Fact is, no single mode of public transport in Ireland runs reasonable hours. Dart & [regular] Dublin Bus services finish at 23:30, I know of no other sizeable European city where this is the case. Half hourly services until 1am would be fitting for a city of 1.5 mil.

[Mark Gleeson]

Its a no brainer that the DART/Maynooth/Drogheda/Kildare lines should have a last train out in the midnight to 12:30 bracket

There is a latent demand for this but a large portion of the potential users complain of a lack of security at trains and stations, thats understandable its a strange experience being on your own in a coach late night, equally you then have the anti social element that is not an isolated issue its a society issue which needs solving. The demand really only exists on Thursday/Friday/Saturday and the late night DART was a total flop there is some work to be done to bring back confidence into the late night use of public transport, we have some thoughts on that.

The big gap currently is the lack of intercity services to Galway, Waterford, Sligo, Rosslare, Westport after 7pm with the advent of the 3 car intercity railcars it should become practical to serve all intercity destinations from Dublin with a train in the 9-9:30 pm bracket. There won't be any reason why and it would cost less than half of what it would to do it today if the trains where available but they are not.

Like Drogheda, Port Loais will gain automatically a late night service in the 11-11:30pm bracket when the maintenance depot opens, thats a given.

This is not a union issue, drivers are required to drive any train 24 hours a day, you only hit problems when its done at say Christmas since it would be outside the planned rosters. The key enabler here is that drivers who live in Gorey/Arklow/Wexford, Carlow, Mullingar etc are recruited and trained (best part of a 2 year lead time on that) or transfered with that in place there would be no need to operate the trains back to Dublin late night empty and back out in the morning so you can eliminate 2 trips which deliver little or no revenue and for no extra cost get a later departure with passengers, still loss making but less so than the current state

Now if someone in Thurles starts to moan about no train after 11 pm, don't get me started....

[Thomas J Stamp]

I'm sorry to diagree with you mark but as far as i am concerned this is pure field of dreams: build it and they will come.

I know plenty of women who will not use the nitelink unless they were in company, untill i walked then onto a bus then they thought it was a fine way of getting home.

Just just sum it reality wise shall we?

1. IE will give you a train home. That train will be a self enclosed metal tube with no police or comany reps patroling the train.

2 That train will stop at a deserted train station in the middle of the night

3 That station will be unmanned

4 You are a young girl. You have braved a trip on a train which you feel is dodgy and you are left in an unmanned station: do you feel secure or not?

5 TAXI!!!!!!!!

The solution is simple and, I know I have checked; there is even a grant for it (Hint:define "rural") but will IE do it? NO!! Why, IE is run for them; not us.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Final reply: long distance services should depart DUB at 22.00 (IE Galway Crok Limerick Waterford Belfast Rosslare and corresponding connections)

WHY?

I can meet my mates, in Dublin, drink red bull (or red rooster lol) and drive home to Tipp at 12 am..... I would get the 12 am train to Thurles if there was one...
"Hold on" says you "that will create some sort of empty train dilemna that IE cannot solve"

Ah, yes says I... unless you accept the reality that if the UK NSE isnt here already it'll be here soon......... then you are right.

HOWEVER..................the reality (sorry for bringing that up) is that Athone, Kilkenny,Thurles ARE now within the commuter belt........

You should demand servies after the 7 pm.

Believe me........ there are going to be a lot of aspirant TD's towing the P11 line in the coming months................... what goes around comes around.

[James Shields]

I have to say, the driver issue seems nonsense to me. What happens if they recruit drivers in these areas, train them and start a service in two years, and then drivers quit/retire/move? Do they shut down the service? I presume they don't, and they'd have to put up drivers in hotels while they recruit and train more. Why can't the same solution be applied here?

[Mark Gleeson]

Well there was war when the gutter journalists found out that IE where paying to taxi two guys from Connolly to Longford 5 days a week

There is no obligation to transfer and there has to be someone at Gorey, Carlow etc to handle the now statutory obligation to confirm the drivers fitness for duty

Key point is
You ask IE they claim no demand extra costs

We say it costs nothing if the staff where based locally, but that requires serious research to prove it given current timetables

[lff12]

Hang on a minute here, when I lived in Cork city centre I frequently took the train to Dublin at the weekend, and as I lived accross the road from the station was conveniently served by the last train, which arrived into Cork around 00:35. that was about 4 or 5 years ago. Has that gone away?

If they can do it in Cork, why can they not do it in Waterford or Galway?
I assume that these are local Cork drivers. If not, what is to stop them staying overnight?

Business regularly sent out field staff to stay overnight at long distance locations. Its a business reality. And BE and private operators do it - in fairness the bus services take nearly double the time of rail, so if they can do it, there is no excuse.

[Mark Gleeson]

Last train to Cork always had been 9pm. It now gets in a lot earlier since its a 100mph train it was until very recently only good for 75mph

Its very quiet once you get beyond Port Loais.

Drivers used to stay overnight it what was known in the jargon as a basket job, that means you got to stump the cash to provide board and also assumes the driver will drive out again the following morning, there are minimum rest times etc.

Moderning thinking doesn't like this work practice its considered less disruptive and safer for drivers to get home each night, also issues with family etc

As I have pointed out the problem is solvable for no cost, we are looking into details now and its interesting