[Article] DART airport plan on track as Metro North hits the buffers

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by markpb

How are you comparing Metro North with a suburban commuter line? They don't serve the same areas (except for Drumcondra) and they don't serve the same functions.

Ballymun and inwards is only four miles out, and has plenty of high frequency bus services and also bus lanes. For Metro to be only from Stephens Green to Ballymun makes no sense to me, esp if they pull the mater project out to Newlands. MN without Mater/Airport/Swords is a bit lame.

[dowlingm]

You have to ask yourself with DUB pax numbers imploding how much passenger traffic there is to get. Stansted Express is one of the best known airport rail projects yet they are only now trying to get 40% numbers across ALL public trans modes. Airport workers often work unsocial hours when PT is poor anyway.

[sean]

Thing about the Airport Spur on its own is that - unlike commuting, which has very distinct pattern and is the bulk of service use - the airport operates around the clock. So you would get more "bums on seats" on the less used off-peak trains, though the service might be of limited use during the commuter peak.

However, given the condition of the Northern Line, adding an M1 Park and Ride to it should be opposed at this time.

[Mark Gleeson]

The math suggests that a double decker bus every 10 minutes would be more than sufficient to meet the demand between Airport and City

The spur is no good for anyone who works at the airport which is very large number, they mostly live in Swords and Blanchardstown

[dowlingm]

@sean - you're right about airport spur being unique travel patterns - they also have luggage which will be hard to deal with on commuter-fit high density carriages.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

@sean - you're right about airport spur being unique travel patterns - they also have luggage which will be hard to deal with on commuter-fit high density carriages.

Metro North will have a small luggage area, possible in the centre of the train.

Remember that while 150 people might get off the plane at the same time, that immigration, luggage collection, customs and general delays means that they will be spread out when they arrive at the station and will board different trains. Also, many people these days travel with only modest luggage (although some could be be smuggling a small car in their out-sized luggage).

[Jack O'Neill]

Article in Irish Independent
Saturday June 18 2011

A MAJOR local authority has criticised a plan to extend the DART line to Dublin Airport instead of building the Metro North light-rail system.

Fingal County Manager David O'Connor claimed the low-cost DART spur would offer "little benefit" to the people of north Dublin, would not serve airport workers, would not be able to compete with buses and would result in fewer DART links to other stations.

His comments follow on the Irish Independent's recent disclosure that the €2.5bn Metro North project was to be shelved in favour of the DART plan.

Funding

The Government ordered Iarnrod Eireann to update the 1991 plan to build a 6.5km spur to the airport, from just beyond Clongriffin DART Station, with the cost estimated at €300m.

The move came amid concerns about funding Metro North which was to link St Stephen's Green to Swords via the airport.

In a report to councillors, Mr O'Connor said the Metro would help to develop north Dublin, lead to the creation of 25,000 jobs and reduce road traffic.

The DART, he claimed, would not help deliver any of the inward investment planned for Fingal, and DART customers would be "detrimentally affected" because trains would have to be taken off the Howth/Malahide lines to serve the airport.

"Dublin Airport accounts for around 20pc of the total patronage on Metro North, or six million passengers per year. Roughly half are workers in airport-related activities who live along the Metro North route. The DART spur would not serve any of these workers.''

And the DART spur was unlikely to be even competitive with the Aircoach service in terms of journey time, he warned.

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Jack O'Neill

Article in Irish Independent
Saturday June 18 2011

A MAJOR local authority has criticised a plan to extend the DART line to Dublin Airport instead of building the Metro North light-rail system.

Fingal County Manager David O'Connor claimed the low-cost DART spur would offer "little benefit" to the people of north Dublin, would not serve airport workers, would not be able to compete with buses and would result in fewer DART links to other stations.

His comments follow on the Irish Independent's recent disclosure that the €2.5bn Metro North project was to be shelved in favour of the DART plan.

Funding

The Government ordered Iarnrod Eireann to update the 1991 plan to build a 6.5km spur to the airport, from just beyond Clongriffin DART Station, with the cost estimated at €300m.

The move came amid concerns about funding Metro North which was to link St Stephen's Green to Swords via the airport.

In a report to councillors, Mr O'Connor said the Metro would help to develop north Dublin, lead to the creation of 25,000 jobs and reduce road traffic.

The DART, he claimed, would not help deliver any of the inward investment planned for Fingal, and DART customers would be "detrimentally affected" because trains would have to be taken off the Howth/Malahide lines to serve the airport.

"Dublin Airport accounts for around 20pc of the total patronage on Metro North, or six million passengers per year. Roughly half are workers in airport-related activities who live along the Metro North route. The DART spur would not serve any of these workers.''

And the DART spur was unlikely to be even competitive with the Aircoach service in terms of journey time, he warned.

Well said DART to the Airport without additional running lines north of Connolly is a waste of €300m.

[Jamie2k9]

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...m-2823282.html

[shweeney]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

http://www.independent.ie/national-n...m-2823282.html

"only €200m" - how many SNAs (for example) would that employ. To build a slow rail link to an airport already well served by public transport.

[Mark Gleeson]

The latest proposal appears to suggest the following

1) A grade separated junction north of Clongriffin
2) Use of all 4 platforms at Clongriffin
3) A twin track line under the 10/28 runway to a location close to the short stay car park at Terminal 1
4) A 4 coach train every 15 minutes to Pearse in addition to existing DART services (6 sets = 24 coaches)

That would be possible within the current stock availability and provide extra capacity on the northside.

It would mean 10 of the 20 slots per hour are gone (4/3/3) which leaves 8 really as you always leave 2 slots spare, but non DART trains need 2.5 slots it doesn't look good unless you wedge the commuter trains through in pairs (3.5 slots)

On the upside the proposal only further pushes the DART underground as the solution. I could still see Swords and Blanachardstown getting a metro/luas to the Airport

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The latest proposal appears to suggest the following

1) A grade separated junction north of Clongriffin
2) Use of all 4 platforms at Clongriffin
3) A twin track line under the 10/28 runway to a location close to the short stay car park at Terminal 1
4) A 4 coach train every 15 minutes to Pearse in addition to existing DART services (6 sets = 24 coaches)

That would be possible within the current stock availability and provide extra capacity on the northside.

It would mean 10 of the 20 slots per hour are gone (4/3/3) which leaves 8 really as you always leave 2 slots spare, but non DART trains need 2.5 slots it doesn't look good unless you wedge the commuter trains through in pairs (3.5 slots)

On the upside the proposal only further pushes the DART underground as the solution. I could still see Swords and Blanachardstown getting a metro/luas to the Airport

Why would you route the line under runway 10/28, surely the line would approach the airport from the east ?

This is a seriously flawed proposal delivering a journey time to Dublin Airport which can be easily bettered by road. It might allow the politicians tick the airport rail link box, but is not remotely comparable to Metro North in scope or impact.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

Why would you route the line under runway 10/28, surely the line would approach the airport from the east ?

I think he means under the approach to runway 10/28.

[Mark Gleeson]

My bad flightpath for the runway not runway

The runaway 10/28 flightpath runs at almost a 90 degree angle to the railway line, an airport branch would leave north of Clongriffin and turn towards the Airport. If you draw a line from the end of the main runway to the approach fix off the coast it passes just south of Portmarnock

Due to planning, noise and safety rules you can't build housing near the flightpath, but you are allowed build a railway. Land is therefore cheap and not currently in use. There are also very few roads to cross

We have access to Irish Rail's airport link proposals for both the Western and Eastern approaches so this has been thought out for sometime

The previous plans assumed a 300-350 million cost, but even at that price the financial numbers were positive so at 200 million its a bargain deal. It is also profitable and leverages existing infrastructure with minimal disruption to all

[Inniskeen]

Ok I understand what you are saying about the approach to runway 28 and certainly a quick perusal of google earth shows a relatively unobstructed corridor from Clongriffin to the airport.

As any regular user of the Belfast line will tell you, Irish Rail have great difficulty in getting an Enterprise or commuter service to Malahide without conflicting with a DART sevice, even at off peak times with only 4 DART trains per hour per direction. It is not uncommon for commuter services to take almost 30 minutes to travel the 11.5 miles from Connolly to Donabate. Additional DART services will only make matters worse. If an airport link is provided from Clongriffin it will result in a further loss of competitiveness and relevance for Enterprise and longer distance commuter services.

The route via Clongriffin is circuituous and the proposed journey time of 25 minutes (from Connolly ?) to the airport is hardly especially attractive being well within the capability of a bus service from the city centre via the port tunnel.

For this proposal (or the interconnector for that matter) to work additional tracks are required north of Connolly. Twenty trains per hour per direction on a mixed traffic double track railway is a fantasy that can only be achieved if every train travels at the same speed as the slowest service.

[markpb]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The runaway 10/28 flightpath runs at almost a 90 degree angle to the railway line, an airport branch would leave north of Clongriffin and turn towards the Airport. If you draw a line from the end of the main runway to the approach fix off the coast it passes just south of Portmarnock

Do you have any idea where or what type of station is being planned? Assuming the line comes in south of the long term car parks between the M1 and the R132, it leaves the station blocked by the freight and office buildings and a long way from the terminals. Are they considering some kind of underground station and associated tunnel? I doubt for €200m that they are but I can't see many useful alternatives.

Also, I assume they'll have to go under the M1 somehow. Do you know how they plan on achieving that?

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

The route via Clongriffin is circuituous and the proposed journey time of 25 minutes (from Connolly ?) to the airport is hardly especially attractive being well within the capability of a bus service from the city centre via the port tunnel.

Even if the train is slightly slower than the bus, it will still attract a lot of passengers simply because most people prefer trains to buses, even if it's unfounded.

[Jack O'Neill]

Sunday Independent July 24 2011 Article...

Metro North will not proceed and is "no longer viable" given its huge cost, according to a number of senior government sources.

While officially no decision has been taken, several senior government sources have said that in light of "significant cuts" to capital spending, the €5bn pet project of former Transport Minister Noel Dempsey is not viable.

Speaking to this newspaper yesterday, Finance Minister Michael Noonan confirmed that December's Budget would contain significant cuts to both current and capital spending, but was keen to stress that no decision had been taken on this specific project.

A full review of the capital spending programme is under way and will be completed in September, after which a decision will be made on which of the four projects -- Metro North, Dart underground, Dart airport and link-up of the two Luas lines -- will go ahead.

"No decision has been taken, all of these things will be decided once the Comprehensive Spending Review is completed, but there will be significant cuts on the capital spending side in the Budget," Mr Noonan said.

His colleague and the line minister in charge, Transport Minister Leo Varadkar, also insisted last week that no final decision had been made, but there was a growing acceptance at senior government level that Metro North would not proceed.

"Clearly there is no hope of this thing going ahead. Just watch this space, the review will come out and Metro North will be gone. We simply can't afford it and we don't need it. They will find another way to link the airport by rail, either by Luas or by Dart," said a senior government source.

"No final decision will be made until the National Development Plan is published in September. All the projects on the table have a lot of merit but the key issue will be affordability," Mr Varadkar told the Sunday Independent.

In recent weeks, the Government has sought a cost outline from Irish Rail for a link-up to the airport by Dart.

It has also emerged that construction of a new Dart line to Dublin Airport will cost just €200m, less than a tenth of the cost of Metro North.

Irish Rail has told Mr Varadkar that the cost of building the 6.5-km Dart spur from Clongriffin to the airport would be significantly lower than expected because of falling land prices and lower construction costs. The new line could be operational within four years.

The lower cost and rapid delivery of a high-speed rail link from the airport to the city means the project is more likely to be approved by the Government.

"Initial indications are that the cost of the 6.5-km rail link from the airport to Clongriffin, which would provide direct Dart services between the airport and the city centre, will come in significantly lower than previously estimated, in the region of €200m in total."

Up to 2,000 jobs will be created if the project is approved.

[weehamster]

I'm getting tired of the Indo's Anti-Metro North campaign. Oh the "sources" said it, so it must be so.

[Mark Gleeson]

It hasn't been cancelled.

The RPA told us straight to our face this afternoon that nothing has changed

Now Metro West on the other hand.....

[comcor]

If there was a DART spur into the airport and onto Swords, I reckon it would be more of a pity to see Metro West scrapped than Metro North.

Now, if it was built, I'd change the end points. Howth on the Northside, removing the DART from Howth and helping with capacity problems on the Northern line. And on the Southside to continue to link to the LUAS Green line and UCD and possibly onto the DART.