Mark III refurbishment

[Mark Gleeson]

The mainline sets are very impressive, cost per coach is upwards of 400,000 EUR. The dynamics of the UK market make such expenditure worthwhile. They basically have turned a Mk3 into an Irish Rail Mk4.

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The mainline sets are very impressive, cost per coach is upwards of 400,000 EUR. The dynamics of the UK market make such expenditure worthwhile. They basically have turned a Mk3 into an Irish Rail Mk4.

They wouldn't be that regessive surely ? !

[Mark Gleeson]

Inside the coaches are very similar to the Irish Rail Mk4, the disability access regulations mean the layout more or less has to be the same.

At 250-300,000 EUR per coach IE's overhaul was deemed uneconomic so ICR's were got instead as the cost per km was almost 50% less.

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Inside the coaches are very similar to the Irish Rail Mk4, the disability access regulations mean the layout more or less has to be the same.

At 250-300,000 EUR per coach IE's overhaul was deemed uneconomic so ICR's were got instead as the cost per km was almost 50% less.

What cost are you referring to ? Fuel cost ?, maintainance cost ? staffing cost ? Track costs ? Over what equipment life-cycle ?

Not sure, for instance, that the cost of operating a six-car railcar from Dublin to Galway would be cheaper than a six-car Mk3 push/pull.

Mind you it is fairly academic now as we have a railcar railway with virtually no freight. Not that long ago it was possible to occupy locomotives on an almost 24 hour basis (with obvious operational efficiencies) but there is very little opportunity to gainfully employ railcars between about 2200 and 0600.

The current ICR fleet is to a considerable extent a product of the Celtic Tiger era and a fair portion of it was purchased using funds that the NRA couldn't burn up quickly enough. Had the normal rules of economics applied I somehow suspect that Mk3s would still be in traffic, refurbished, and with a good ten to fifteen years of life remaining.

I hope the ICRs last the pace and deliver the economies you suggest because it is likely to be a long time before capital is available for replacements.

[Mark Gleeson]

Its cheaper to operate an ICR, 3, 6 or 9 coaches all good for 100mph, no need for a guard and the fuel consumption per mile is less.

ICR reliability is running at about twice Mk3+201.

While the refurbishment looks cheaper, the projected cost to overhaul the Mk3 push pull fleet came to over 25million!

[Carrage A]

Its cheaper to operate an ICR, 3, 6 or 9 coaches all good for 100mph, no need for a guard and the fuel consumption per mile is less.

I think it said that operating an ICR fuel wise is €6 per km in the 2030 rail vision. If thats correct what would the 201 class be around?

What cost are you referring to ? Fuel cost ?, maintainance cost ? staffing cost ? Track costs ? Over what equipment life-cycle ?

Think the ICR may be kinder to the tracks more than the 201.

[Mark Gleeson]

Due safety limitations Mk3 needed 8 coaches to operate at 100mph to make the braking distances.

So while a Mk3+201 is actually fuel efficient when in 8-9 coach length few if any trains in Ireland require such capacity

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Its cheaper to operate an ICR, 3, 6 or 9 coaches all good for 100mph, no need for a guard and the fuel consumption per mile is less.

ICR reliability is running at about twice Mk3+201.

While the refurbishment looks cheaper, the projected cost to overhaul the Mk3 push pull fleet came to over 25million!

The cost crossover between multiple units and locomotive hauled trains is generally accepted as around 5 or 6 vehicles. A rolling stock options report for Metrolinx in Ontario, Canada states "The break‐even point varies by service profile (distances between stops, maximum speed, profile) and by unit costs (mostly locomotive – rebuilt, new diesel, or new dual‐mode). This point is typically four to five units for single‐level DMUs and five to six units for double‐deck DMUs."

As regards Mk3 formations there were indeed restrictions on train speed for short formations - can't remember the number but it certainly wasn't as high as you suggest - closer to five vehicles if I recall correctly.

[dowlingm]

As someone who reads a lot of their stuff, take anything Metrolinx say with a large pinch of salt or at least look for corroborating studies. These are the guys who stood over a study of 10-12 car EMU trains to replace loco+9/11 duplex trailers+duplex DVT by using conjugated 3-4 car EuroEMUs (Coradia) as a comparator rather than the more similar train consists operated in places like Chicago. (see p29 of this PDF)