Anti Social Scumbags

Colm Moore · 08-03-2014, 08:51

If anyone witnessed the events, please contact the investigating gardaí.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ACustomer

And thanks to yesterday's Supreme Court ruling (courtesy of the ECHR) the little sh*ts cannot even be be questioned until they have a solicitor present.

Without wanting to get into a legal discussion, this isn't quite the decision. I understand it has implications for evidence gained before one gets legal advice. I don't think there is any entitlement to have the solicitor present for the duration of all questioning.

Traincustomer · 08-03-2014, 14:22

Shannonside (local radio) coverage:

http://www.shannonside.ie/news/two-charged-with-criminal-damage-after-train-incident/

http://www.shannonside.ie/news/early...ble-broke-out/

I feel for the ordinary passengers who were onboard the train.

haddockman · 08-03-2014, 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

If anyone witnessed the events, please contact the investigating gardaí.Without wanting to get into a legal discussion, this isn't quite the decision. I understand it has implications for evidence gained before one gets legal advice. I don't think there is any entitlement to have the solicitor present for the duration of all questioning.

That is correct, but any competent solicitor will advise their client not to answer questions or make any statement.

joey · 08-03-2014, 21:32

The full force of the law should be enforced without any discretion to these scumbags. Brings back the argument about having transport police within our network.

Getting bail is a joke, incredible.

Was it a 22k or 29k set?

James Howard · 09-03-2014, 13:44

There are only a few clearly defined reasons for bail being denied. These are that the defendant is likely to abscond while on bail, that the defendant is likely to interfere with witnesses or jurors, that the defendant was already on bail when the crime was committed or that a Garda superintendent believes that the defendant is like to commit another crime while on bail.

The last provision is used relatively rarely but if none of these conditions are met the defendant has to be offered bail. The fact is that prisons are already full of people who have been convicted of crimes. The reality is that to remand somebody who is technically innocent until proven guilty is going to require a convicted criminal to be let out on temporary release to make space.

The real issue is about how long it takes the wheels of justice to turn. It will probably be several months before this case comes up and even when it does, if the individuals have no previous record (I won't comment on the likelihood of this), they will probably get away with a short sentence or community service. As somebody who has been up for jury service a couple of times, from my observation the entire process is a bit of a joke and a tremendous waste of a hell of a lot of both peoples time and public money.

On the issue of transport police, I can't see that this service would have been assigned any protection as it would have been regarded as a low-risk service. I think it would be more reasonable to expect that there should be a ticket collector on most if not all services to keep an eye on things. This would be especially the case for outer commuter services given that most of the stations have no ticket barriers so the level of fare evasion is sufficient that a ticket collector would be self-financing. I would say personally that I move carriage three or four times a year where there is a particular level of anti-social behaviour going on and I would rather complete my journey in peace and quiet. It wouldn't really occur to me to ring anyone about it as I don't want to get involved and get beaten up or have my laptop smashed for my trouble and there would rarely be any staff on the train to back me up.

grainne whale · 10-03-2014, 08:47

I was on the 17.20pm train from Heuston to Portlaoise on Friday evening when two windows were smashed in the carriage by scumbags throwing stones at Clondalkin. Certainly I would prefer to see Transport Police rather than those private security (Brinks) who have only the same powers of arrest as you or I on our transport system.

James Howard · 10-03-2014, 13:55

It's hard to see what on-board Transport Police can do about stone throwers but I agree that some sort of official staff presence on trains is desirable. As transport police would probably require legislation, this isn't likely to happen.

Stone-throwing is a problem as old as the hills and is by no means unique to Ireland. It was actually a lot worse 20 years ago around Broombridge. Pretty much every train I took back then got hit in Broombridge. Guys going nuts and smashing their way out of carriages on morning commuter services is a new one as far as I can see.

Given that the guards have been starved of funds to the point where they can't afford Biros, expecting a timely Garda response might also be a bit unrealistic but both Irish Rail and the guards did seem to do pretty well in their response to events on Friday morning.

Mark Gleeson · 10-03-2014, 14:05

Early morning is not a time you would expect trouble

The advent of front/rear CCTV on many trains means the stone throwers can now be traced in many incidents. Legally there is no issue with a transport police as it would be just a gardai division like the traffic corp.

The windows are designed to take a pretty significant impact without collapsing, that is no doubt is why the pair on the Longford train didn't get far with the glass hammer.

If you know how to use the glass hammer you can take a window out in a single strike, if you don't you will probably break the hammer before you break the window. Just look at the graphic next to the hammer for the secret

grainne whale · 10-03-2014, 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Howard

It's hard to see what on-board Transport Police can do about stone throwers but I agree that some sort of official staff presence on trains is desirable. As transport police would probably require legislation, this isn't likely to happen.

Stone-throwing is a problem as old as the hills and is by no means unique to Ireland. It was actually a lot worse 20 years ago around Broombridge. Pretty much every train I took back then got hit in Broombridge. Guys going nuts and smashing their way out of carriages on morning commuter services is a new one as far as I can see.

Given that the guards have been starved of funds to the point where they can't afford Biros, expecting a timely Garda response might also be a bit unrealistic but both Irish Rail and the guards did seem to do pretty well in their response to events on Friday morning.

Sorry, I didn't mean that Transport Police could stop the stone throwing (badly phrased), but they would stop anti social behavour on trains. ie the 16.40 fron Heuston to Waterford from time to time. As regards legislation - I'm not so sure, we have Airport Police, Harbour Police, so why not Transport Police

Colm Moore · 10-03-2014, 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Howard

It's hard to see what on-board Transport Police can do about stone throwers but I agree that some sort of official staff presence on trains is desirable.

Not much, but stone throwing is largely localised, so they can target those areas.

Quote:

As transport police would probably require legislation, this isn't likely to happen.

Potentially, it could exist as a Garda unit under its own command structure so that its personnel don't get dragged off to do whatever the local superintendent wants.

Quote:

Originally Posted by grainne whale

As regards legislation - I'm not so sure, we have Airport Police, Harbour Police, so why not Transport Police

The problem there is that they are only allowed operate on port/airport property. Transport police would need to be able to operate anywhere on the railway and on roads.

08-03-2014, 14:22	#2
Traincustomer Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: ar an traein Posts: 600	Shannonside (local radio) coverage: http://www.shannonside.ie/news/two-charged-with-criminal-damage-after-train-incident/ http://www.shannonside.ie/news/early...ble-broke-out/ I feel for the ordinary passengers who were onboard the train. Last edited by Traincustomer : 08-03-2014 at 14:24.

10-03-2014, 08:47	#6
grainne whale Really Regular Poster Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Celbridge Posts: 259	I was on the 17.20pm train from Heuston to Portlaoise on Friday evening when two windows were smashed in the carriage by scumbags throwing stones at Clondalkin. Certainly I would prefer to see Transport Police rather than those private security (Brinks) who have only the same powers of arrest as you or I on our transport system. Last edited by grainne whale : 10-03-2014 at 08:53.

10-03-2014, 14:05	#8
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Early morning is not a time you would expect trouble The advent of front/rear CCTV on many trains means the stone throwers can now be traced in many incidents. Legally there is no issue with a transport police as it would be just a gardai division like the traffic corp. The windows are designed to take a pretty significant impact without collapsing, that is no doubt is why the pair on the Longford train didn't get far with the glass hammer. If you know how to use the glass hammer you can take a window out in a single strike, if you don't you will probably break the hammer before you break the window. Just look at the graphic next to the hammer for the secret __________________ Unhappy with new timetable - let us know

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08-03-2014, 21:32	#4
joey Regular Poster Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Coach A Posts: 188	The full force of the law should be enforced without any discretion to these scumbags. Brings back the argument about having transport police within our network. Getting bail is a joke, incredible. Was it a 22k or 29k set?

09-03-2014, 13:44	#5
James Howard Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Sligo Line Posts: 1,115	There are only a few clearly defined reasons for bail being denied. These are that the defendant is likely to abscond while on bail, that the defendant is likely to interfere with witnesses or jurors, that the defendant was already on bail when the crime was committed or that a Garda superintendent believes that the defendant is like to commit another crime while on bail. The last provision is used relatively rarely but if none of these conditions are met the defendant has to be offered bail. The fact is that prisons are already full of people who have been convicted of crimes. The reality is that to remand somebody who is technically innocent until proven guilty is going to require a convicted criminal to be let out on temporary release to make space. The real issue is about how long it takes the wheels of justice to turn. It will probably be several months before this case comes up and even when it does, if the individuals have no previous record (I won't comment on the likelihood of this), they will probably get away with a short sentence or community service. As somebody who has been up for jury service a couple of times, from my observation the entire process is a bit of a joke and a tremendous waste of a hell of a lot of both peoples time and public money. On the issue of transport police, I can't see that this service would have been assigned any protection as it would have been regarded as a low-risk service. I think it would be more reasonable to expect that there should be a ticket collector on most if not all services to keep an eye on things. This would be especially the case for outer commuter services given that most of the stations have no ticket barriers so the level of fare evasion is sufficient that a ticket collector would be self-financing. I would say personally that I move carriage three or four times a year where there is a particular level of anti-social behaviour going on and I would rather complete my journey in peace and quiet. It wouldn't really occur to me to ring anyone about it as I don't want to get involved and get beaten up or have my laptop smashed for my trouble and there would rarely be any staff on the train to back me up.

10-03-2014, 13:55	#7
James Howard Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Sligo Line Posts: 1,115	It's hard to see what on-board Transport Police can do about stone throwers but I agree that some sort of official staff presence on trains is desirable. As transport police would probably require legislation, this isn't likely to happen. Stone-throwing is a problem as old as the hills and is by no means unique to Ireland. It was actually a lot worse 20 years ago around Broombridge. Pretty much every train I took back then got hit in Broombridge. Guys going nuts and smashing their way out of carriages on morning commuter services is a new one as far as I can see. Given that the guards have been starved of funds to the point where they can't afford Biros, expecting a timely Garda response might also be a bit unrealistic but both Irish Rail and the guards did seem to do pretty well in their response to events on Friday morning.