Docklands Station - Page 5

Colm Donoghue · 20-03-2007, 09:18

are you metrobest in disguise

Who's paying for docklands station?
is it the hansfield developers? central govt?
fingal co.co through development levies?

Mark Gleeson · 20-03-2007, 09:19

Surprisingly close, there is something fishy going on and we need to confirm

Redsoxfan · 20-03-2007, 11:23

I've heard from a couple of people who have used the Clonsilla/Docklands service in the mornings that volumes are very light.

I can't say I've noticed much (if any) difference myself to volumes on existing services. (I commute from Maynooth).

Mark Gleeson · 20-03-2007, 11:55

First day the loadings where

51 on the 7:00 ex Clonsilla and about 150 on the 7:45, we don't have any data on the 8:20 which given it arrives at 8:42 would appear to be the one to watch

Outbound its quiet on the 17:38

The recon team is out, its early days yet it won't be until the week after easter that everything settles and we can get a real assessment. By Maynooth line standards the loadings are low but bear in mind the rush hour loading on a typical Maynooth line train is in the region of 300-350%

al2637 · 20-03-2007, 15:05

But the problem here is the addition of new stations/demand on the line, and the assumption that Docklands provides extra capacity for this. It's just too much in the middle of no where for people to want to go there.

What's really going to happen is that the trains to Connolly will fill up in Clonsilla/Coolmine, leaving Castleknock, Pheonix Park and Ashtown without a direct service into town.

They really should have spent the money increasing capacity in Connolly... e.g. a train arrives at 8:31 every morning, and then sits on P7 until 8:40 before it leaves for the return journey. Is there any reason why it couldn't turn around quicker and make the platoform available for another, possibly 2 trains?

Mark Gleeson · 20-03-2007, 15:19

It all comes down to planning conditions one extra platform in Connolly could work wonders but then that would not satisfy the Hansfield conditions.

We did some math on Connolly and came up with a timetable which could get

3 Dundalk Connolly
3 Drogheda Pearse
3 Maynooth Connolly (p7 skipping Drumcondra via Midland)
3 Maynooth Bray
3 Malahide Bray
3 Howth Bray

Going the other way
2 Gorey to beyond Connolly
3 DART to Malahide
3 DART to Howth
2 DART to Connolly (then to shed Fairview)

Total in one hour 28

We ran into a slight problem to sustain this for 90 minutes would require a hell of a lot of trains

al2637 · 20-03-2007, 15:25

Mark, is that based on typical IE timetable padding tho?

If P7 was dedicated to Maynooth line trains, why couldn't they run them every 3-4 minutes? i.e. arrive, driver gets out walks to other end and departs straight away... maybe 60seconds? I only ask because this is what happens in A'dam on the metro... they have 2 terminus platforms at CS, and they turn trains so quickly that they can operate 3 metro lines on the 2 platforms (with a conflict!)

Mark Gleeson · 20-03-2007, 15:35

General rule is 3 minutes plus 1 extra per coach, if you want it reliable which is the key requirement

Its also technically single P7 to just before Croke Park so when a train clears for Maynooth it will be 6 minutes before the next one can come in from the Midland line since it has to wait just west of Croke Park until the outbound train clears the Newcommen Junction

Limit on the Maynooth line is 8tph level crossings etc. Our little timetable can hack that by adding 2 trains to Docklands, of course it would have allowed for 3 trains from Kildare an hour as well if Docklands was built correctly

ThomasJ · 20-03-2007, 19:46

Is there a reason why so many drogheda and dundalk trains run all the way to bray in the morning. If thew went as far as pearse and connolly could this provide an extra train or two? And how come platform 3 in dun laoghaire cannot be used as a commuter terminus

sjkhayes · 20-03-2007, 21:45

Suppose you call the station alongside the canal "North strand", with an entrance on the North strand. That way it opens up another area of the city, including Croke Park to rail travel.

Strikes me that an elevated walk way as far as the Dart platforms at Connolly would be the way to go. The distance is only 250 meters which is a 3 minute walk, so I don't think a travelator would be required. Many London underground walking connections are longer.

People wanting to access the IFSC can stay on the train as far as Docklands.

The connection would be most useful to people who want to transfer to the Dart.

S

al2637 · 20-03-2007, 21:45

3minutes + 1 per coach seems an awful lot given the majority of peak Maynooth services are 8 coach. What is the +1min for? The length of time you need to allow the driver to walk the length of the carriage and have a chat about last nights football game? They really should be able to turn them in 1-2 mins at MAX... <1 if we had a decent rail company.

Would it not be possible to rework the signals/track so that the next train could wait just short of the platform?

As for level crossings, couldn't you move the existing docklands trains into Connolly without any additional closures? How is this going to be dealt with once the line is DART-ified and the interconnector is built?

Seems like an awful lot of this is fixable and could provide a huge capacity boost on the line if only IE gave a f@$&

Gary · 22-03-2007, 12:44

DB are currenlty building a raised bus stop east bound out right outside station, not sure if they're adding more services down there or they will change the route of 93 & 151 buses that terminate on the other side of the road.

They seem to be doing a good bit of advertising for the 151, uptake seems to be slow enough from the IFSC side even though the 151 runs every 10/15 mins, guess rush hour traffic on the quays with no bus lane might have something to play with that.

It also saves DB a bit of a nightmare as to where to park buses terminating in the city centre if you just keep sending them across city like they did with the 46A in Mountjoy Sq.

dowlingm · 22-03-2007, 15:57

Mark

could starting some of the Clonsilla trains in Maynooth or points west help the Docklands loads and take strain off the Connollys?

Mark Gleeson · 22-03-2007, 16:08

That would be in breech of the planning conditions

Based on current usage more people use Docklands than use the Ennis Limerick service so on a wider scale the current demand isn't really that bad on a country wide basis

This is the first time in Ireland we actually preloaded infrastructure so a slow start is to be expected, that said some of the choices made by CIE don't help

Principle demand location on the Maynooth line is Coolmine

dowlingm · 22-03-2007, 16:22

Mark

sorry missed that ref on page 4.

Oisin88 · 24-03-2007, 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary

They seem to be doing a good bit of advertising for the 151, uptake seems to be slow enough from the IFSC side even though the 151 runs every 10/15 mins, guess rush hour traffic on the quays with no bus lane might have something to play with that.

Do you think also that they should have done some sort of research to find where people working in the IFSC come from? Perhaps there might have been other routes as well as the 51 that could have benefitted from being extended to the docklands.

clonsilladart · 24-03-2007, 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oisin88

Do you think also that they should have done some sort of research to find where people working in the IFSC come from? I think there were more people doing business in college from maybe rathfarnham/templeogue etc. than clondalkin, so perharps the 151 (51 with an added bit) should have been the 115 (15 with an added bit)??

Really don't know what to say about that comment!!!!
I'm not even to get drawn into your "area racism"..... but your knowledge of the railway network is also worrying.....clondalkin isn't within 10 - 15 miles of the Maynooth line (leixlip confey is probably closest).
Clondalkin is on the Kildare line, which currently terminates in Huston!!!! Alos there are plenty of people from every area of Ireland working in the IFSC!!!

Oisin88 · 25-03-2007, 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by clonsilladart

Really don't know what to say about that comment!!!!
I'm not even to get drawn into your "area racism"..... but your knowledge of the railway network is also worrying.....clondalkin isn't within 10 - 15 miles of the Maynooth line (leixlip confey is probably closest).
Clondalkin is on the Kildare line, which currently terminates in Huston!!!! Alos there are plenty of people from every area of Ireland working in the IFSC!!!

No offence was meant to people from West Dublin.

I'm talking about the bus and the lack of IFSC people using it. The 15 route was just an example of another route that might get a few more people out of cars but I can stand to be corrected as I was only going by people studying business courses, like I said. I also picked the 15s as it's a relatively short route. I don't understand what closeness to the Maynooth line has to do with anything.

clonsilladart · 25-03-2007, 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oisin88

No offence was meant to people from West Dublin........

Well your comment definitely suggested a stereotype....... I know people with PhD's from Clondalkin........ Not to worry though!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oisin88

I don't understand what closeness to the Maynooth line has to do with anything.

I though you were referring to the actual dockland station, not the bus rout.... apologies for the misunderstanding!!!

Gary · 29-03-2007, 08:50

I think routing a couple of 15X down to the Docklands and even onto East Point would make a lot of sense.

You look at on paper there's a large population living in outline areas and there's a large amount of people working in the two sites, 20,000+ so why not route a 46X, 15X. The quays are also quieter but this will change when the new Macken Street Bridge is open.

On a seperate note the docklands station seems to be slow enough in terms of commuter numbers, not sure if that's planned to increase.

20-03-2007, 21:45	#90
sjkhayes New to the board Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 8	Back to North Strand Station Suppose you call the station alongside the canal "North strand", with an entrance on the North strand. That way it opens up another area of the city, including Croke Park to rail travel. Strikes me that an elevated walk way as far as the Dart platforms at Connolly would be the way to go. The distance is only 250 meters which is a 3 minute walk, so I don't think a travelator would be required. Many London underground walking connections are longer. People wanting to access the IFSC can stay on the train as far as Docklands. The connection would be most useful to people who want to transfer to the Dart. S

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20-03-2007, 09:18	#81
Colm Donoghue Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 873	are you metrobest in disguise Who's paying for docklands station? is it the hansfield developers? central govt? fingal co.co through development levies?

20-03-2007, 09:19	#82
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Surprisingly close, there is something fishy going on and we need to confirm

20-03-2007, 11:23	#83
Redsoxfan New to the board Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 22	I've heard from a couple of people who have used the Clonsilla/Docklands service in the mornings that volumes are very light. I can't say I've noticed much (if any) difference myself to volumes on existing services. (I commute from Maynooth).

20-03-2007, 11:55	#84
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	First day the loadings where 51 on the 7:00 ex Clonsilla and about 150 on the 7:45, we don't have any data on the 8:20 which given it arrives at 8:42 would appear to be the one to watch Outbound its quiet on the 17:38 The recon team is out, its early days yet it won't be until the week after easter that everything settles and we can get a real assessment. By Maynooth line standards the loadings are low but bear in mind the rush hour loading on a typical Maynooth line train is in the region of 300-350%

20-03-2007, 15:05	#85
al2637 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 191	But the problem here is the addition of new stations/demand on the line, and the assumption that Docklands provides extra capacity for this. It's just too much in the middle of no where for people to want to go there. What's really going to happen is that the trains to Connolly will fill up in Clonsilla/Coolmine, leaving Castleknock, Pheonix Park and Ashtown without a direct service into town. They really should have spent the money increasing capacity in Connolly... e.g. a train arrives at 8:31 every morning, and then sits on P7 until 8:40 before it leaves for the return journey. Is there any reason why it couldn't turn around quicker and make the platoform available for another, possibly 2 trains?

20-03-2007, 15:19	#86
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	It all comes down to planning conditions one extra platform in Connolly could work wonders but then that would not satisfy the Hansfield conditions. We did some math on Connolly and came up with a timetable which could get 3 Dundalk Connolly 3 Drogheda Pearse 3 Maynooth Connolly (p7 skipping Drumcondra via Midland) 3 Maynooth Bray 3 Malahide Bray 3 Howth Bray Going the other way 2 Gorey to beyond Connolly 3 DART to Malahide 3 DART to Howth 2 DART to Connolly (then to shed Fairview) Total in one hour 28 We ran into a slight problem to sustain this for 90 minutes would require a hell of a lot of trains

20-03-2007, 15:25	#87
al2637 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 191	Mark, is that based on typical IE timetable padding tho? If P7 was dedicated to Maynooth line trains, why couldn't they run them every 3-4 minutes? i.e. arrive, driver gets out walks to other end and departs straight away... maybe 60seconds? I only ask because this is what happens in A'dam on the metro... they have 2 terminus platforms at CS, and they turn trains so quickly that they can operate 3 metro lines on the 2 platforms (with a conflict!)

20-03-2007, 15:35	#88
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	General rule is 3 minutes plus 1 extra per coach, if you want it reliable which is the key requirement Its also technically single P7 to just before Croke Park so when a train clears for Maynooth it will be 6 minutes before the next one can come in from the Midland line since it has to wait just west of Croke Park until the outbound train clears the Newcommen Junction Limit on the Maynooth line is 8tph level crossings etc. Our little timetable can hack that by adding 2 trains to Docklands, of course it would have allowed for 3 trains from Kildare an hour as well if Docklands was built correctly

20-03-2007, 19:46	#89
ThomasJ Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Clonsilla Posts: 2,812	Is there a reason why so many drogheda and dundalk trains run all the way to bray in the morning. If thew went as far as pearse and connolly could this provide an extra train or two? And how come platform 3 in dun laoghaire cannot be used as a commuter terminus

22-03-2007, 12:44	#92
Gary Regular Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 71	DB are currenlty building a raised bus stop east bound out right outside station, not sure if they're adding more services down there or they will change the route of 93 & 151 buses that terminate on the other side of the road. They seem to be doing a good bit of advertising for the 151, uptake seems to be slow enough from the IFSC side even though the 151 runs every 10/15 mins, guess rush hour traffic on the quays with no bus lane might have something to play with that. It also saves DB a bit of a nightmare as to where to park buses terminating in the city centre if you just keep sending them across city like they did with the 46A in Mountjoy Sq.

22-03-2007, 15:57	#93
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	Mark could starting some of the Clonsilla trains in Maynooth or points west help the Docklands loads and take strain off the Connollys?

22-03-2007, 16:08	#94
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	That would be in breech of the planning conditions Based on current usage more people use Docklands than use the Ennis Limerick service so on a wider scale the current demand isn't really that bad on a country wide basis This is the first time in Ireland we actually preloaded infrastructure so a slow start is to be expected, that said some of the choices made by CIE don't help Principle demand location on the Maynooth line is Coolmine

22-03-2007, 16:22	#95
dowlingm Really Really Regluar Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,371	Mark sorry missed that ref on page 4.

29-03-2007, 08:50	#100
Gary Regular Poster Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 71	I think routing a couple of 15X down to the Docklands and even onto East Point would make a lot of sense. You look at on paper there's a large population living in outline areas and there's a large amount of people working in the two sites, 20,000+ so why not route a 46X, 15X. The quays are also quieter but this will change when the new Macken Street Bridge is open. On a seperate note the docklands station seems to be slow enough in terms of commuter numbers, not sure if that's planned to increase.