Proposals for extra train services in North Tipperary...

[finnyus]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

Seems to be OK now.

Unfortunately for me, the 0530 is still the first service showing on irishrail.ie (see attachment).

[comcor]

The 5K must surely be yet another example of IN&M bending statistics to suit their agenda.

I have to assume that it's what you get when you divide the total cost of operating the line by the number of services, rather than the increased cost of operating the service.

How much fuel is it going to use? 200 litres maybe. And Irish Rail won't be paying duty on it.

The extra staffing required can't be that high. Mostly services will be on lines that were already operational, although the morning service will mean an extra hour worked by a few people.

Wear and tear on tracks and trains? Can it be that high?

I just can't see how it can add up to 5K.

The worst part is the suspicion that the figures must have come from within Irish Rail to make the case for closing the line before it's had a chance.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by comcor

The 5K must surely be yet another example of IN&M bending statistics to suit their agenda.

I have to assume that it's what you get when you divide the total cost of operating the line by the number of services, rather than the increased cost of operating the service.

How much fuel is it going to use? 200 litres maybe. And Irish Rail won't be paying duty on it.

The extra staffing required can't be that high. Mostly services will be on lines that were already operational, although the morning service will mean an extra hour worked by a few people.

Wear and tear on tracks and trains? Can it be that high?

I just can't see how it can add up to 5K.

The worst part is the suspicion that the figures must have come from within Irish Rail to make the case for closing the line before it's had a chance.

i understand the figure is actually around €2,000 per day, I guess an extra 0 got lost in the matrix somewhere.

As someone who lives between Templemore and Roscrea and who works in Roscrea, it will be interesting to see that the actual patronage, as opposed to the usual vocal support, wil be for this. I was involved in a survey for the Templemore Train Users Group several years ago and we know that about half a dozen to a dozen people were using the early morning services from Temeplmore who lived in what would be the catchment for this early service. Undoubtedly there would be others who use Thurles.

They should be expected to get this train (although its arrival time is only relevent to those who work in that part of the city centre nearest Heuston) but will probably get the early Cork/Limerick trains out of Templemore as they still get in earlier.

The real acid test is the numbers of new passengers who will use it. Of course, what should be done is an early train from Ballybrophy to Limerick which would take an awful lot more people.

I also wonder where they are getting this train from, and is it really only a long long pullback of a planned commuter service planned from Portlaosie inwards? The amount of commuter stops on the way in suggests it is.

[comcor]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

The real acid test is the numbers of new passengers who will use it. Of course, what should be done is an early train from Ballybrophy to Limerick which would take an awful lot more people.

I'll speak as someone who has no connection to the line, but does have family in the catchment of Rosslare-Waterford and knows a little about how that line was perceived locally before its closure.

One of the problems is going to be that it takes a while to build a commuter base and I'm not sure that this line has time. In addition, people will need to know that the service isn't just going to be withdrawn if they are to start relying on it.

Pulling the commuter service out of Limerick in the evening is going to do nothing to promote the image of rail commuting in the area.

Someone made reference to Welsh services that were given a 3 year time frame to prove their worth. While I know we're strapped for cash at the moment, this is the kind of guarantee that is needed if public trust in the service is to be built up.

[dowlingm]

Ballybrophy will be a quite decent place to commute from now that there are three departures in the system which will land you in Heuston between 8.10 and 8.40.

Surely the set will have to be based in Limerick rather than deadheaded from Portlaoise to arrive before 0515? That sounds too bizarre even for Irish Rail to consider.

If the 1915 dep ex Ballybrophy was held 5 or so minutes, a person could commute from Limerick to Roscrea in 1hr 40ish (dep Limerick 1800 Limerick Junction 1827 Ballybrophy 1920) with 2 changes which would compare time-wise quite well to the 1hr32 the 1605 branch service takes.

While I doubt that many people not rail enthusiasts can be bothered taking three trains to get to Roscrea I would have thought a trickle of trade from the 1730 Cork departure (arr 1919) would be worth holding for considering that the bloody train will sit in Roscrea for 12 minutes anyway.

[doherty jack]

Originally Posted by comcor

I'll speak as someone who has no connection to the line, but does have family in the catchment of Rosslare-Waterford and knows a little about how that line was perceived locally before its closure.

One of the problems is going to be that it takes a while to build a commuter base and I'm not sure that this line has time. In addition, people will need to know that the service isn't just going to be withdrawn if they are to start relying on it.

Pulling the commuter service out of Limerick in the evening is going to do nothing to promote the image of rail commuting in the area.

Someone made reference to Welsh services that were given a 3 year time frame to prove their worth. While I know we're strapped for cash at the moment, this is the kind of guarantee that is needed if public trust in the service is to be built up.

yes , but people wont join overnight and not enough will use it in the 1st 6months ! which is unfortunate!

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by comcor

Wear and tear on tracks and trains? Can it be that high?

......

that the figures must have come from within Irish Rail to make the case for closing the line before it's had a chance.

Wear and tear of an ICR will be higher on the track, the newer part will be ok, the older part will probably be replaced with track cut from the Cork Mainline development which is ongoing.

IE have, understandably, a bullwark against the proposals of the McCarthy reports, and we have seen that in the case of Rosslare-Waterford and next in line for a fallback position was Ballybrophy branch with the idea of rail busses being floated on the Clonmel branch too. This initiative by Alan Kelly (and make no bones about it this is his idea not IE's) has rather scuppered that for the time being. What you may think of this initiative on his part is down to you. I couldnt possibly comment.

[comcor]

Originally Posted by finnyus

Unfortunately for me, the 0530 is still the first service showing on irishrail.ie (see attachment).

That's a quirk of the booking system.

The 5:30 arrives before the 5:15, so the 5:15 doesn't show up.

You get some weird results sometimes, like suggesting you go from Waterford to Dublin via Limerick Junction because the 11:40 train via Limerick Junction leaves after the 11:00 and arrives about quarter of an hour before the 13:00.


Basically, it excludes any route that leaves before your option, if it arrives after and includes any that leaves after, but arrives before the next train, no matter how bizarre the routing.

[finnyus]

Originally Posted by comcor

That's a quirk of the booking system.

...

12 years in the software development sector makes me see this as a defect (bug)...

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by finnyus

Unfortunately for me, the 0530 is still the first service showing on irishrail.ie (see attachment).

Ah, I had looked at a Limerick-Ballybrophy trip, where there isn't much of a time difference.

Originally Posted by comcor

That's a quirk of the booking system.

...

Basically, it excludes any route that leaves before your option, if it arrives after and includes any that leaves after, but arrives before the next train, no matter how bizarre the routing.

Originally Posted by finnyus

12 years in the software development sector makes me see this as a defect (bug)...

Its a feature, not a bug. You request a train that will get you to Heuston and the 0530 will get you there first, the 0515 is essentially useless to you.

Originally Posted by comcor

Basically, it excludes any route that leaves before your option, if it arrives after and includes any that leaves after, but arrives before the next train, no matter how bizarre the routing.

In the case of Waterford-Dublin, if someone would have better use of their time in Dublin, then that routing is valid. Some Cork-Galway trips are via Portarlington, some via Limerick.

[Jamie2k9]

How much fuel is it going to use? 200 litres maybe. And Irish Rail won't be paying duty on it.

The extra staffing required can't be that high. Mostly services will be on lines that were already operational, although the morning service will mean an extra hour worked by a few people.

IR will have to run an empty ICR from either Portlaois or Heuston to Limerick to operate the service. The new 13.40 service to Limerick will most lightly operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings. You then have the cost of a driver on to run an empty train and the the 05.15 from Limerick.

The costs do add up so enjoy the service while its there as it is very lightly that it will canceled after the 6 months.

[Kilocharlie]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

IR will have to run an empty ICR from either Portlaois or Heuston to Limerick to operate the service. The new 13.40 service to Limerick will most lightly operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings. You then have the cost of a driver on to run an empty train and the the 05.15 from Limerick.

The costs do add up so enjoy the service while its there as it is very lightly that it will canceled after the 6 months.

Or perhaps split one of the existing trains with 1/2 going via Nenagh and 1/2 via Thurles?

[doherty jack]

Originally Posted by Kilocharlie

Or perhaps split one of the existing trains with 1/2 going via Nenagh and 1/2 via Thurles?

it is very difficult to run train direct to Roscrea/Nenagh line , it takes 15mins to go from the loop line to the bay platform! including going up the wrong road!

[Kilocharlie]

Originally Posted by doherty jack

it is very difficult to run train direct to Roscrea/Nenagh line , it takes 15mins to go from the loop line to the bay platform! including going up the wrong road!

I meant splitting one of the 2x3 trains that arrive in Limerick in the evening with one half to form the 0515 and the other the normal service. I was not suggesting doing this in reverse.

[Alan French]

I wouldn’t be too negative about the new timetable. To start with the down side, clearly the biggest loss is the 17.45 Limerick-Nenagh. The earlier time of 17.05 is too early for most commuters.

They will argue that the train never attracted many commuters anyway, so there’s not much loss. I’m hearing two conflicting reports here: one is this train is an essential alternative to the congested streets of Limerick. The other is that the roads are so good and the train is so slow that no one uses it. Can someone enlighten me?

In any case, I don’t think they should give up so easily on attracting commuters. The new timetable needs one additional train (a class 22, by the sound of it) which finishes its roster at 15.50. This should be available to operate the 17.45 Limerick-Nenagh (or at least to Birdhill). See also Jack Doherty’s suggestion in #127.

The new timetable follows the precedent of the other lines radiating from Dublin, which all have a train arriving in Dublin before 09.00, and another one arriving a little later. There is also a choice of evening trains from Dublin. (Notice that this is the pattern for the Dublin-Rosslare line, which is sparsely served at other times.) The Nenagh line stood out as a glaring omission, so it’s good to see the gap being filled. I reckon that the aim is to offer choice of times: people were driving from Roscrea or Nenagh to a station on the main line because that gave them flexibility, which the Nenagh line doesn’t. The through train to Dublin is basically a good idea, if the path works; in recent years IR have tended to forget that a change of trains can be a deterrent, and it’s worth running through trains where possible.

The 13.40 Dublin-Limerick won’t benefit the Nenagh line directly, but do you notice that it’s restoring a useful service that was withdrawn until 2009 (previously at 13.25)?

About the absence of access to the far platform at Roscrea: Perhaps, once the service starts, the sight of a train stopping but unable to handle passengers will put the pressure on to do something – either to build a bridge or a back entrance, or to change the rules. Pressure may overcome the “can’t be done” attitude. I reckon that the simplest solution is a gate and ramp from the far side. What about the idea of a pedestrian crossing with barriers and lights? These are found in Holland, and I wonder if Irish rules specifically forbid them.

I know that this sudden political interference is unsettling, but it’s probably better than the old attitude of “I’ve no intention of intervening in IR’s decision-making”. The problem is not so much that one politician is pushing a local project, but that others, in other places, are not pushing theirs. If pressure were to come from several places at once, the whole scene would change. IR would no longer be able to dig their heels in when the need for an improved timetable is glaringly obvious. It’s like what is beginning to happen with the threat to rural national schools; if one place is looking to keep its school, that’s seeking a favour; if several places nationwide are looking to keep their schools, it needs a change in the decision-making process.

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

IR will have to run an empty ICR from either Portlaois or Heuston to Limerick to operate the service. The new 13.40 service to Limerick will most lightly operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings. You then have the cost of a driver on to run an empty train and the the 05.15 from Limerick.

The costs do add up so enjoy the service while its there as it is very lightly that it will canceled after the 6 months.

If that is the case what is the 1340 to Limerick all about. Given that this exercise is supposed to be about improving services via Nenagh one would have to question why the set for the 1340 doesn't work a service from Heuston ahead of the 1300 and then shunt to the branch to form a connection off the 1300.

[dowlingm]

Inniskeen, if it worked via the branch and its time consuming shunting then presumably there's a fear it wouldn't be available to form the 1705, given current running times and the need to cross the 1605?

[Inniskeen]

Originally Posted by dowlingm

Inniskeen, if it worked via the branch and its time consuming shunting then presumably there's a fear it wouldn't be available to form the 1705, given current running times and the need to cross the 1605?

Later information suggests that the 1340 from Heuston will be a 3-car ICR set and will not form the 1705 Limerick to Ballybrophy. No apparent tie-up with 0900 from Limerick either.

[Kilocharlie]

Originally Posted by Inniskeen

Later information suggests that the 1340 from Heuston will be a 3-car ICR set and will not form the 1705 Limerick to Ballybrophy. No apparent tie-up with 0900 from Limerick either.

According to the journey planner, the 0900 to Dublin is already running even though the timetable has this only from 25th June. It is probably provided by splitting one of the 3 evening trains.

That implies that he 1340 is required to provide a unit for the new service. Wonder what evening train will loose 3 carriages? 1805 to Portlaosie??

[neoncircles]

Originally Posted by Jamie2k9

IR will have to run an empty ICR from either Portlaois or Heuston to Limerick to operate the service. The new 13.40 service to Limerick will most lightly operate the 09.00 from Limerick in the mornings. You then have the cost of a driver on to run an empty train and the the 05.15 from Limerick.

The costs do add up so enjoy the service while its there as it is very lightly that it will canceled after the 6 months.

I would think the 1340 would operate as 2x3 car 22k...3 car to operate 0515 and 3 car to operate 0900