[Article] Rail Bus for lightly used lines

Mark Hennessy · 15-06-2009, 08:22

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...248849959.html

Quote:

IRISH RAIL is considering replacing the Waterford to Limerick Junction services with a “rail bus” – a hybrid vehicle which can run on road and rail.

They should order one for the WRC too...

dermo88 · 16-06-2009, 14:19

A lifting train for North of Athenry would be the only thing I'd order for the WRC

Standing Passenger · 17-06-2009, 19:38

Look Lads, hundreds of people look forward to an improved quality of life on their daily commute on the WRC and will pay for the privalidge just like their friends in the East and South. So give the snide remarks a break and propose lifting railway tracks in your own neighbourhood if you want to see tracks being ripped up.

Lets have no hard feelings but the continuous berating of the WRC is getting a bit tiresome on an otherwise excellent and valuable website.

It saddens me to see a site devoted to railusers carry such vindictive contributions towards other railusers aspiring to promote rail transport.

sublimity · 17-06-2009, 21:08

A rail bus? Give me a break. Cop yourselves on Irish Rail

PLUMB LOCO · 17-06-2009, 23:26

How about some of these for the WRC and the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line. Cheaper than a railbus and no fuel required.

www.happytokorea.com/information/railbike.php

dermo88 · 18-06-2009, 13:55

Standing Passenger

We will see if hundreds are using it in droves as you say. I hope that Limerick to Galway is a success. Just checked that this is also your 3rd post, and considering this site has been around since 2006 in its current format, and has had paying members since 2005, may I ask?

1. How come there is a comment now about the so called "continuous WRC bashing". There have been more than 4 years to engage on this. Unless of course, there is a new identity from other identities, which has taken place previously on this site in relation to this issue.

2. If the first post is on 14th June 2009, then how is one aware of the so called "continuous WRC bashing"?

3. It took only one line to cause controversy. Nevertheless, I need to repeat it

"A lifting train for the line NORTH of Athenry is the only thing I'd order for the WRC".

Thats not vindictive. Its a rational comment based on pages of reports, and thousands of comments read and made over the years since 2003. In light of other services which are defective, is it appropriate to expand in areas which will be even more inadequate than existing services such as

(a) Waterford to Rosslare Harbour.
(b) Waterford to Limerick Junction.
(c) Ballybrophy to Limerick.

In an ideal world, yes, proper expansion would take place, but it is not feasible, and is not likely to be feasible for many years. Scarce resources need to be allocated wisely. This is the reason for my reaction, I hope it is respected and understood. I can only hope that years of painstaking work on getting projects to succeed such as the Phoenix Park Tunnel, Galway to Limerick, Cork to Midleton, amongst others is not overcome by opposition to one project whose benefits are questionable at best.

Regards

Diarmuid

Thomas Ralph · 18-06-2009, 15:10

Folks,

Moderator hat on here; just a reminder to be nice.

Thanks!

seamus kilcock · 18-06-2009, 19:17

Many years ago I used the WRC going to/from Listowel/Ballinasloe on several occasions. I used it during the steam era as well as diesal. I look forward to using it again when it re-opens.
But - the cost involved can not be justified.
It was a political decision.
What a wast of resources.
That is my opinion and I would love to be proved wrong.
IMHO the number of people who wish to travel between Limerick and Galway including intermediate towns/villages - are being accommodated already by bus and at much less cost compared to train travel.
Time will tell who right.
Nearly forgot to add there is an excellent dual carriageway being built which will allow faster journey times between Liimerick and Galway by bus compared to rail.

Standing Passenger · 20-06-2009, 11:05

I note the moderators comment and I certainly don't want to ridicule anyones opinion - just express my own.

I'm sure we agree on far more than we disagree and I wish you well.

All the best.
Paddy

PLUMB LOCO · 20-06-2009, 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Standing Passenger

Diarmuid I just joined the site lately and found the historic comments readily. Its well known that there are people who are deeply opposed to this railway. When I came across the above comments I took the opportunity to insert my own. Others may know a lot more than I here but I found it a bit strange that there were such strong feelings being expressed against the WRC by rail advocates. I don't think its a waste of money. To me wasted money is lines of 25year old rolling stock that was travelling with trainloads of passengers at 90mph up to a few weeks ago parked as vandal fodder around the country on rusty sidings.I feel there have been so many short-sighted decisions made in the past regarding the closure of lines that this seems a rather modest gamble which has a great chance of being successful once operated properly.
If it is, won't it be fantastic, and if it is'nt sure they can transfer the new track elsewhere and turn it into a walking route after they evacuate the last of the population from western towns and cities.

I note the moderators comment and I certainly don't want to ridicule anyones opinion - just express my own.

I'm sure we agree on far more than we disagree and I wish you well.

All the best.
Paddy

I couldn't agree with you more. There are many on this forum and elsewhere who are anti the WRC project, including me, but I would like to see it reopened in an entirely different way by somebody other than CIE/IE. Others here oppose anything not serving the Greater Dublin Area but see no problem with massive expenditure there - Metro North, the Inter-Connector and the Kildare route four tracking but God forbid a few crumbs should be spent elsewhere - WRC, Midleton, Nenagh branch etc.etc.

I also agree with you that the withdrawal of perfectly good MkIII carriages is a far greater scandal than the expenditure on the WRC but you won't find much support for that view here. Rail Users Ireland is opposed to the WRC - end of story. For a different viewpoint you should try the site below.

www.irishrailwaysblogspot.com

Colm Moore · 21-06-2009, 19:22

I think thats a little unfair. Support should go to the projects that are most viable, whether thats providing more meaningful services on some less used lines, e.g. suggestions to provide Mayo-Athlone shuttles to connect with Galway services, promoting meaningful population densities along Galway-Oranmore and not providing a tram that just duplicates most of the the infrastructure, adding more stations in select urban areas around Dublin, Cork and Limerick and providing the most services where there is the most need.

karlr42 · 21-06-2009, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by PLUMB LOCO

God forbid a few crumbs should be spent elsewhere - WRC,

In all fairness, the WRC is far from a few crumbs, it is a huge investment that many consider incredibly foolish.

dermo88 · 21-06-2009, 23:54

Its about priorities, thats how I view it. The WRC is far down the list. Whats defective needs to be fixed. Existing services need to be fixed. When thats sorted, we move on to the next step. We have a main line now.....Dublin to Cork with serious speed restrictions imposed. Noone begrudges the Midleton line at all, in fact it has a greater return on investment than the Navan line, or any of the other major rail based projects for a relatively small outlay. In short, there are 8 or 9 other projects we could outline that deserve greater priority than the Northern portion of the WRC. The Southern portion, Ennis to Athenry, noone had any objections to that. Lets be perfectly clear on that.

The withdrawal of the remaining Mark 3 coaches. Okay, lets ask some questions:

1. How much would it cost to convert them into Push/Pull stock, which would get another 15-20 years life out of them.
2. Having them as Pull only is actually a cost in itself, considering shunting etc.
3. Iarnrod Eireann learned the hard way in the 1980's when they ended up with the remaining 24 of the Mark 3 order getting shoved around by the 121's for 6 years or so, when they were supposed to be railcar sets.
4. The Mark 3's could be refurbished, but again, it would mean that there was a non standard brand across Intercity. With the ICR sets, we get a consistent brand across the network, which can only be a good thing.

The day of the loco hauled train in Ireland is over. Period. In fact, it should have ended a long time ago. Northern Ireland Railways was almost pure DMU territory for decades, and they provided a reasonably good service, more frequent than Iarnrod Eireann for less money on the network that survived.

sublimity · 22-06-2009, 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by dermo88

Its about priorities, thats how I view it. The WRC is far down the list. Whats defective needs to be fixed. Existing services need to be fixed. When thats sorted, we move on to the next step. We have a main line now.....Dublin to Cork with serious speed restrictions imposed. Noone begrudges the Midleton line at all, in fact it has a greater return on investment than the Navan line, or any of the other major rail based projects for a relatively small outlay. In short, there are 8 or 9 other projects we could outline that deserve greater priority than the Northern portion of the WRC. The Southern portion, Ennis to Athenry, noone had any objections to that. Lets be perfectly clear on that.

The withdrawal of the remaining Mark 3 coaches. Okay, lets ask some questions:

1. How much would it cost to convert them into Push/Pull stock, which would get another 15-20 years life out of them.
2. Having them as Pull only is actually a cost in itself, considering shunting etc.
3. Iarnrod Eireann learned the hard way in the 1980's when they ended up with the remaining 24 of the Mark 3 order getting shoved around by the 121's for 6 years or so, when they were supposed to be railcar sets.
4. The Mark 3's could be refurbished, but again, it would mean that there was a non standard brand across Intercity. With the ICR sets, we get a consistent brand across the network, which can only be a good thing.

The day of the loco hauled train in Ireland is over. Period. In fact, it should have ended a long time ago. Northern Ireland Railways was almost pure DMU territory for decades, and they provided a reasonably good service, more frequent than Iarnrod Eireann for less money on the network that survived.

Not sure if I agree with you. Why do the two main lines Cork and Belfast have locos then? The reason I'd imagine is because they enable the train to travel at a faster speed.

I think 48 Mk3s are being refurbished and yes it looks like they will be integrated for push/pull services in the future. I don't think locos will ever become obsolete on passenger journeys.

Besides, we have numerous locos lying idle at the moment with the withdrawal of mk3's. Isn't that a waste of money?

dermo88 · 23-06-2009, 04:47

Its a case of horses for courses as I have argued before. Locomotive haulage was appropriate to the old style traffic patterns Ireland had, which was the heavy passenger train, running 3 times daily (direct) in each direction on the routes to Rosslare/Sligo/Westport/Tralee/Limerick. 4 or 5 times daily to Galway/Waterford, and 6-7 times daily to Cork. This was the case until the early 2000's.

This was not quite appropriate anymore to customer needs, so they decided to go with high frequency, smaller trains, which is more in keeping with the traffic levels likely to be on offer. DMU's are more economical once you have 6coaches or less.

I agree with retaining 48 Mk 3 coaches, particularly if they can be retrofitted for Push/Pull, which is the way forward. There were only 30 of the original fleet fitted for this kind of operation, in 5 sets. Also, having two vehicles in a rake doing nothing with no bums in seats is'nt all that good either. I mean, one locomotive and one gen van.

As for loco's lying idle, its just symptomatic of a change in the system. We got half the expected lifespan out of the 201's, and the full whack out of the remainder of the fleet. Its not perfect in my view, but it could be worse.

18-06-2009, 13:55	#6
dermo88 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 136	Standing Passenger We will see if hundreds are using it in droves as you say. I hope that Limerick to Galway is a success. Just checked that this is also your 3rd post, and considering this site has been around since 2006 in its current format, and has had paying members since 2005, may I ask? 1. How come there is a comment now about the so called "continuous WRC bashing". There have been more than 4 years to engage on this. Unless of course, there is a new identity from other identities, which has taken place previously on this site in relation to this issue. 2. If the first post is on 14th June 2009, then how is one aware of the so called "continuous WRC bashing"? 3. It took only one line to cause controversy. Nevertheless, I need to repeat it "A lifting train for the line NORTH of Athenry is the only thing I'd order for the WRC". Thats not vindictive. Its a rational comment based on pages of reports, and thousands of comments read and made over the years since 2003. In light of other services which are defective, is it appropriate to expand in areas which will be even more inadequate than existing services such as (a) Waterford to Rosslare Harbour. (b) Waterford to Limerick Junction. (c) Ballybrophy to Limerick. In an ideal world, yes, proper expansion would take place, but it is not feasible, and is not likely to be feasible for many years. Scarce resources need to be allocated wisely. This is the reason for my reaction, I hope it is respected and understood. I can only hope that years of painstaking work on getting projects to succeed such as the Phoenix Park Tunnel, Galway to Limerick, Cork to Midleton, amongst others is not overcome by opposition to one project whose benefits are questionable at best. Regards Diarmuid Last edited by dermo88 : 18-06-2009 at 16:39. Reason: Request to be more polite

20-06-2009, 11:05	#9
Standing Passenger New to the board Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: galway Posts: 11	I note the moderators comment and I certainly don't want to ridicule anyones opinion - just express my own. I'm sure we agree on far more than we disagree and I wish you well. All the best. Paddy Last edited by Standing Passenger : 21-06-2009 at 13:08.

21-06-2009, 19:22	#11
Colm Moore Local Liaison Officer Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 5,442	I think thats a little unfair. Support should go to the projects that are most viable, whether thats providing more meaningful services on some less used lines, e.g. suggestions to provide Mayo-Athlone shuttles to connect with Galway services, promoting meaningful population densities along Galway-Oranmore and not providing a tram that just duplicates most of the the infrastructure, adding more stations in select urban areas around Dublin, Cork and Limerick and providing the most services where there is the most need. __________________

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16-06-2009, 14:19	#2
dermo88 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 136	A lifting train for North of Athenry would be the only thing I'd order for the WRC

17-06-2009, 19:38	#3
Standing Passenger New to the board Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: galway Posts: 11	Look Lads, hundreds of people look forward to an improved quality of life on their daily commute on the WRC and will pay for the privalidge just like their friends in the East and South. So give the snide remarks a break and propose lifting railway tracks in your own neighbourhood if you want to see tracks being ripped up. Lets have no hard feelings but the continuous berating of the WRC is getting a bit tiresome on an otherwise excellent and valuable website. It saddens me to see a site devoted to railusers carry such vindictive contributions towards other railusers aspiring to promote rail transport.

17-06-2009, 21:08	#4
sublimity Really Regular Poster Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Dublin Posts: 309	A rail bus? Give me a break. Cop yourselves on Irish Rail

17-06-2009, 23:26	#5
PLUMB LOCO Regular Poster Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 146	How about some of these for the WRC and the Limerick Junction/Rosslare line. Cheaper than a railbus and no fuel required. www.happytokorea.com/information/railbike.php

18-06-2009, 15:10	#7
Thomas Ralph IT Officer Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Greenwich, London Posts: 1,860	Folks, Moderator hat on here; just a reminder to be nice. Thanks!

18-06-2009, 19:17	#8
seamus kilcock Regular Poster Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 103	Many years ago I used the WRC going to/from Listowel/Ballinasloe on several occasions. I used it during the steam era as well as diesal. I look forward to using it again when it re-opens. But - the cost involved can not be justified. It was a political decision. What a wast of resources. That is my opinion and I would love to be proved wrong. IMHO the number of people who wish to travel between Limerick and Galway including intermediate towns/villages - are being accommodated already by bus and at much less cost compared to train travel. Time will tell who right. Nearly forgot to add there is an excellent dual carriageway being built which will allow faster journey times between Liimerick and Galway by bus compared to rail.

21-06-2009, 23:54	#13
dermo88 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 136	Its about priorities, thats how I view it. The WRC is far down the list. Whats defective needs to be fixed. Existing services need to be fixed. When thats sorted, we move on to the next step. We have a main line now.....Dublin to Cork with serious speed restrictions imposed. Noone begrudges the Midleton line at all, in fact it has a greater return on investment than the Navan line, or any of the other major rail based projects for a relatively small outlay. In short, there are 8 or 9 other projects we could outline that deserve greater priority than the Northern portion of the WRC. The Southern portion, Ennis to Athenry, noone had any objections to that. Lets be perfectly clear on that. The withdrawal of the remaining Mark 3 coaches. Okay, lets ask some questions: 1. How much would it cost to convert them into Push/Pull stock, which would get another 15-20 years life out of them. 2. Having them as Pull only is actually a cost in itself, considering shunting etc. 3. Iarnrod Eireann learned the hard way in the 1980's when they ended up with the remaining 24 of the Mark 3 order getting shoved around by the 121's for 6 years or so, when they were supposed to be railcar sets. 4. The Mark 3's could be refurbished, but again, it would mean that there was a non standard brand across Intercity. With the ICR sets, we get a consistent brand across the network, which can only be a good thing. The day of the loco hauled train in Ireland is over. Period. In fact, it should have ended a long time ago. Northern Ireland Railways was almost pure DMU territory for decades, and they provided a reasonably good service, more frequent than Iarnrod Eireann for less money on the network that survived.

23-06-2009, 04:47	#15
dermo88 Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 136	Its a case of horses for courses as I have argued before. Locomotive haulage was appropriate to the old style traffic patterns Ireland had, which was the heavy passenger train, running 3 times daily (direct) in each direction on the routes to Rosslare/Sligo/Westport/Tralee/Limerick. 4 or 5 times daily to Galway/Waterford, and 6-7 times daily to Cork. This was the case until the early 2000's. This was not quite appropriate anymore to customer needs, so they decided to go with high frequency, smaller trains, which is more in keeping with the traffic levels likely to be on offer. DMU's are more economical once you have 6coaches or less. I agree with retaining 48 Mk 3 coaches, particularly if they can be retrofitted for Push/Pull, which is the way forward. There were only 30 of the original fleet fitted for this kind of operation, in 5 sets. Also, having two vehicles in a rake doing nothing with no bums in seats is'nt all that good either. I mean, one locomotive and one gen van. As for loco's lying idle, its just symptomatic of a change in the system. We got half the expected lifespan out of the 201's, and the full whack out of the remainder of the fleet. Its not perfect in my view, but it could be worse.