A real Transport 21

[Derek Wheeler]

Im putting this in the canteen because it will involve more than just trains and Luas and I want the "public" to see and contribute to it. Im also assuming that Government and apparent transport professionals will view it too. As we approach an election, discussion about this will and should be pivotal.

The project is simple.

Leave aside, the current T21 plan and offer your own version. It would help if you aren't carried away by the DTO's Platform for change document, the original DART plan or T21's plans. Base it on what is needed now.

Think Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Cork, Waterford and provincial towns, in terms of public transport that is accessible to all and offers a real alternative to the car. Include the motorway programme if you wish, as its relevent.

Most importantly, think hard about Ireland's road traffic problem, poor public transport and devise a plan that a decent Government could implement to alleviate it.

[sean]

I'm going to like this thread.

Public transport.

Cork and Limerick. Middelton line reopened and all Cork area suburban lines electrified to Midelton, Cobh and Mallow. DART style service implemented. Limerick Commuter local services established to Nenagh, Clonmel, and Shannon Airport. One Luas line each for Cork and Limerick.

Put the local bus services in Cork out to tender - yesterday. Ban BE from entering the competition.

Galway: Double track to Athenry and local commuter serivces to same location. New Galway-Limerick-Cork intercity line over the Southern WRC. WRC to Tuam reopened for Galway commuter services subject to the presence of a credible development plan.

Dublin:
Local: Twin track DART to Navan. Resurrect and accelerate the original Irish Rail "Dublin Rail Plan" including the Interconnector, Airport DART spur quad track and electrification to Kildare, DART to Drogheda. Construct an interchange station at Glasnevin Junction, a Drumcondra South station on the Midland line and overhaul Newcommon Curve into Connolly. Run Maynooth to Bray DARTs on the Midland line.

Opportunistically add "middle road" passing loops to all twin lines running out of Dublin city in areas where there is greenfield and/or free space on the alignment, especially at any new stations.

Build Metro as presently proposed except with proper high platform/floor trains, and include an interchange Drumcondra South.

Build high quality Luas lines on unserved corridors close to the Central area.

Give DB 300 extra buses and the freedom to create, amend and terminate routes as they see fit. Put Alek Smart in charge of DB because I get the feeling he knows more about bus based public transport in Dublin than the whole Dept. of Transport put together.

Bring all local transport in Dublin City under the control of a single authority with a strong mandate to oversee construction of new infrastructure and to deisgn an integrated fares structure such as Berlin and to design and to distribute an all-inclusive system map. Give it also the mandate to take over the branding of DART, Luas, Dublin bus and other local bus services under its control.

Connolly-based intercity lines and associated long distance commuter services:
Merge the Sligo and Rosslare Intercity lines with proper trains into a single Intercity service running through Dublin calling at Glasnevin, Drumcondra South, Connolly, Tara St. and Pearse. Ditto for commuter serivces Arklow-Longford.

Heuston-based long distance service
Use the track slots freed up on the Drumcondra line and Connolly terminal platforms, by the previous moves re: Sligo-Rosslare and the Midland line to move the terminus of important Intercity and long distance routes from Heuston to the Connolly terminal via the Phoinex Park Tunnel and the Drumcondra line. Cork, Limerick and Galway IC services, as well as Athlone, Kilkenny and Portlaoise Commuter services.

Electrify the line to Cork and Limerick and begin an overhaul of the Dublin-Cork mainline.

Midlands (Getting a bit selfish here)
Reinstate the Mullingar-Athlone line and double all tracks within 20-30 miles of Mullingar in all directions. New unmanned station at Newtownforbes for extension to the Longford Commuter service.

Roads:

Conclude the present motorways programme and don't start a new one. Bypass all towns on primary national routes preferably with dual carraigeway and increase investment in the secondary and non-national routes which are still a disgrace.

Take those stupid GATSO vans off the motorways and put them on the secondary and tertiary roads esp. late at night which is where they are really needed.

Overhaul and expand the school bus system, replace all buses over 7 years old and create new bus routes.

Hire a considerable new force of driving testers to have road tests on demand, eliminate waiting lists, abolish the provisional license and replace it with a sticter learners permit, which bans driving unaccompanied and is enforced. But a driver is given a Certificate of Waiver for the need for accompainment and other restrictions if they end up stuck on a test waiting list for more than a couple of weeks.

Miscellaneous.

Build a nuclear power plant and begin a renewables programme, tithing a portion of their output to Irish Rail and the RPA.

[ccos]

Building of a Tram in Cork from Kent station via the bus station (using the old Railway route) and Patricks Bridge, out to the RTC and University Hospital and a Line south towards Carrigaline.

[Colm Donoghue]

Galway:
build a park and ride at Derrydonnell cross.get enough busses to run it on weekdays.
build another park and ride at Oranmore to be the car park for a future train station, but a bus park and ride immediately.
Tuam Road/Claregalway. build a relief route around Claregalway. Grade seperate the N17/18 Junction.

Limerick/Cork:
Join these with a Dual carriageway.

Cork:
Get some kind of public transport system running. i.e. a proper bus system. train network to be improved with Middleton line and stations on northside.
Get the pike on the M8 accepting eazypass
Implement the Ceannt station upgrade (face the Lee)
Implement a light rail to Ballincollig.
Implement a QBC from Carrigaline to the city.

Bypass every town on National Primary routes with a grade seperated ring road. allow expansion to Dual carriageway easily in future (not like N9/Nenagh etc). allow NO development on ring roads (see N80 in Carlow, M50 in Dublin)
This will mean the people who are in a town are the people who want to be there. For years bypasses were held up through out the country by small shopkeepers bemoaning the loss of trade from people who have spent the last half hour stuck trying to get through their small town....

Derry road: abandon all ideas about upgrading then existing N2 north of Ashbourne. apply a 7.5tonne limit in Slane. Re route the entire N2 onto a three lane M1 and re-designate the N33 to Ardee as the N2. It is rediculous to have two motorways to Ardee and 5 miles away from Ardee

Northern line:
triple track rural sections to allow passing by higher speed services. i.e north of HJ&D and probably south of Skerries.
get northern line services to connect at HJ&D (at least off peak) to allow connections to Howth and Sutton. similarily at Connolly to allow Western line connections.

Maynooth line:
Electrify . remove level crossings at Clonsilla, ratoath road, that boreen in Clonsilla whose name escapes me but has a new shiny overbridge about 250m east of it. Automate all other Level crossings.

IE general stuff
Upgrade the City centre signalling. rewrite the timetable to maximise the throughput of trains through the city centre.
fix GCD to allow trains terminate on centre platform and northbound services use the southmost platform.
Get enough drivers and railcars to provide an increased level of service.
Figure out how to run a customer focused service.
sort the website out
Upgrade Drogheda Navan Line. run passenger services from Navan on this asap. Plan to run a shuttle bus service to connect with arriving and departing trains at Navan
ditto Drogheda
Ditto any commuter train station where the patronage warrants this, bearing in mind the reduced demand for carparking and pressure to buy new land for carparking. I'm thinking anywhere the station is more than a mile from the centre of it's population catchment area. Portarlington, Rush and Lusk, and Hazelhatch spring to mind.

double track LJ to Limerick line where easily possible, improve signalling to increase frequency possible and start Limerick commuter services.

Scope out building a massive park and ride at Sallins connected to the M7. Possibly even a new station.

Build the interconnector.

Integrated ticketing: Either implement this or don't no half hearted pseudo -integration. If people are so mad about contactless smart cards that's fine. make every subsidised public transport operator in the country accept them.
Operate the smartcards so if you use them so a cheaper card would have been better value, stop charging. i.e. if you use a smartcard for the luas every day for a whole month, the card stops charging when you've bought the cost of a monthly ticket.
change social welfare passes to smart cards, that can be read on Dublin bus.



Most towns: institute pay parking in busy areas. Use funds from this to run a free carpark and shuttle bus. This should get additional funding from Co. Councils and Central Govt.
Tax free carparking at work as a BIK. The value to be determined by the cost of parking directly outside the place of work. Start with the illegal carpark on the lawn at Leinster house.
Implement the (or some) spatial strategy. Stop scattergun decentralisation.
Institute bus links instead of rail where a new improved road would help provide a better service, or the same service cheaper.


Take most of Smart aleks Ideas and implement them.
Hire Alek to implement his secret really good plans for megabucks

[Donal Quinn]

buy every outboard motor in the world and attach to north coast (bring NI along if they can agree)
start the engines and motor the island south, picking up vine saplings in bordeaux
drop anchor outside gibraltar and charge a toll to all the shipping traffic (who says dreams aren't self financing)

keel beach in achill becomes the best beach in the world. nice one

maybe call it "transport 2100 miles???"

----
edit: ok that's facetious but seriously shouldn't our suggestion for P11's T21 have some relation to fiscal and economic reality?

[CSL]

x4 the toll on the M50; make it the same as the Port Tunnel, also make it at all parts of M50 not just the bridge

. Implement immediate Carbon tax on petrol to €2.50/litre

Exempt PSV's from above . If I do that I've got plenty of cash.

Now : start digging proper underground metro.

Set up independent toll pass apportionment agency, make it responsible for issuing passes and apportioning revenue given the current eazypass mess

Set up independent clearing house agency make it responsible for ireland-wide transport ticket revenue sharing across agencies and companies; implement bid/offer spread to allow efficient market operation. Force all companies especially DB and IE to abide by the revenue sharing; move the DOT people who insist on a particular zonal/other system to a bureaucratic job that will suit them


Activate canal cordon for private vehicles = congestion charge and make it €20/day


implement proper funding system for all public transport projects; base them properly on funding , include proper lifetime costs including environmental damage [ ppm CO2 +CO + maintenance +capital cost ] . Include all road projects

[TomB]

Crayons at the ready!


Aims of the programme:

1. To improve the quality of life for Ireland's citizens, and to maintain our economic competitiveness, by reducing the time people spend travelling every day.

2. To promote balanced, sustainable regional development by supporting the National Spatial Strategy, in particular the proposal to create viable hubs and gateways outside Dublin

Programme 1: Making public transport work

This is about tying in the rest of the programmes below.

1. Transport authorities for Cork, Limerick, Galway and Dublin. Passenger representation on all these bodies. These authorities will be given a budget to overhaul bus-based transport in these cities (thinking Cork in particular here) but will have targets to hit. These transport authorities don't *have* to privatise, but are free to do so if they wish.
2. Bus, metro, Luas, DART and rail operators *required* to implement proper integrated ticketing (both common smart card and single through tickets) before they get any funding. In other words, integrated ticketing the first step, not the last.
3. New service provision agreements for public transport operators. Independently verified customer service and punctuality targets.

Programme 2: Integrated public transport plans through competitive tendering

Local authorities invited to submit plans for improved public transport infrastructure. Only the best plans will be funded. Authorities are allowed and indeed encouraged to form consortia -- I'm thinking Sligo, Mayo, Galway, Clare, Limerick, Cork here if there is to be a serious WRC proposal.

The plans are evaluated with the following criteria:
1. How do the local authorities plan to maximise use of the railway line? In other words, high-density zoning of land around proposed bus/rail stations will need to be seen here, and they have to be concrete commitments (funding will be cut off if the local authority hasn't done everything it can to encourage high-density development)
2. How does it fit in with the NSS?
3. How much impact will it have in terms of person-hours saved per year from not being in traffic?

The kinds of plans I'd expect to see in here are Limerick Cork and Galway commuter rail, Dublin Luas, WRC, Navan etc.

Note that Mullingar-Athlone and a proper Shannon rail link would be strongly favoured under (2) as they would link gateway clusters, however they would have to show clear commitments to (1) to get funded. WRC might work under (2) but would need miracles under (1) and (3).

The advantages to this approach is that it puts responsibility on the local councils to deliver. Increases local democracy, and rewards local authorities (Cork, in parts...) who have been better at land use planning.

Programme 3: National transport network

Objective: to underpin the NSS by reducing journey time between our urban centres.

Activity (i) - Complete the interurban road network with 2+1 roads, except where motorway planning is at such an advanced stage that it would be a waste of money to halt them. This would include the 'Atlantic Road Corridor'

Activity (ii) - Overhaul the track and rolling stock on our national rail network with the following resulting journey times from Dublin to the NSS gateways:

Cork: 2:30
Limerick and Shannon: 2:00
Galway: 2:00
Waterford: 2:00
Athlone: 1:20
Mullingar: 1:00
Dundalk: 0:55
Sligo: 2:40
Belfast: 2:00

These journey times should be at least 30% quicker than the equivalent journey by car after the completion of the road network. If not, then they should be reduced accordingly.

Letterkenny should be treated separately: as this route is not rail served and any improvement in transport infrastructure will be on a cross-border basis.

All the above routes should be made hourly with the exceptions of Sligo and Waterford, with all the infrastructural improvements (e.g. double-tracking) that this will entail.

The above work should start to be implemented within one year.
Within this year, urban councils, working together with county councils situated around these urban areas, should submit plans to show how they intend to enhance the density and accessibility of the mainline rail stations to maximise intercity train usage.

Furthermore, councils should identify which stations should be shut and which should be earmarked for development under a 'use it or lose it' strategy. Thinking especially of the Sligo, Galway and Waterford lines here.

After the plans have been submitted by the urban councils, they should be independently assessed and prioritised using a transparent system. Work should then start starting with the links with the centres who submitted the best plans.

Programme 4: Relieving the gridlock in Dublin

Acknowledging the special case of the severe traffic problems in Dublin, a specific fund for creating an urban transport network in Dublin.

Projects:

1. The Interconnector, Kildare Route Project, and 3 or 4 tracking the Northern line, and elimination of key level crossings on the commuter rail lines coming in to Dublin. Any other measures (passing loops at existing DART stations perhaps) that prevent DARTs every 5 mins peak and 10 mins off peak without compromising intercity services

2. Metro from Northern DART line, through Swords, Airport, Stephen's Green, down to Sandyford.

3. Complete bus network review, new routes drawn up making buses *exactly* like Luas with fewer stops, proper raised halts with ticket machines and real time passenger info, bus priority at junctions. Big purchase of buses for DB to smooth transition until other projects completed. New route network with heavy emphasis on feeder shuttles getting people to DART and Metro stops.

4. Park & rides etc. at the above.

5. Placing a levy on all car parking spaces within the Greater Dublin area. For on-street parking, this would result in increased charges. Multi-storeys, ditto. Employee parking could be taxed as a benefit in kind.

6. This project optional and a bit of a crayon job: Metro from Tallaght, through Kimmage, skirting the western end of the city centre (intersecting with DART station at High St. and a stop around the market area) before going up Broadstone (intersect with Maynooth DART) to Finglas

Any other Dublin projects, especially Luas and what to do with the Beechwood-St. Stephen's Green rump superceded by metro, to be funded under Programme 2

[Nigel Fitzgricer]

Most importantly, think hard about Ireland's road traffic problem, poor public transport and devise a plan

Emigration?

[Aphfaneire]

Build tram networks in all major towns where it is fiesable.
Build new routes between towns with rail to dublin but not between each other, ie western rail coridor, go to all major towns in the west and then connect to Newry, and go east from kerry to connect to waterford so we have a big circle going around the country, with the old crazy routes in the middle.

Build tram lines or in motorway medians inside cities and major towns.

Build Red line spur to Naas down the Naas road, you know you want the chaos and the extra service


And now for the crazy plan:
Build supper huge city, skyscrappers and all in the centre of the country. When building it include massive tram network, train services, city airport, full ring road, extensive bus network, affordable housing with full technological improvements(solar panels, geo-thermal heating, broadband, pneumatic tubing to post office ), Shoping areas in city centre not shopping centres,(malls and arcades are fine as part of skyscrappers), Limit driving in cetral zones to deliveries, taxi's and curriours, Large pedestrain areas and sky bridges between important buildings, Underground motorways/walkways and subways to provide over all access but not cluttering the ground.


Oh and ofcourse when this city is finished with a capacity for about 2 million people, blow up all the major towns and keep all land marks and then rebuild them to a logical grid iron layout with working interconnected transport, and loads of pedestrianised areas to keep shopping in town, not aircraft carrier sized monstrosities like dundrum. I can dream cant i?

[Oisin88]

***completely hypothetical***
I am not an engineer or economist, just a computer who thinks there is more too it than engineering and economics.

RAIL
1. Make all intercity lines double track and electrified.
2. Reallign the Belfast line so that:
(a) it cuts inland and passes through Dublin airport (4 lines airport to heuston)
(b) it swings around to Heuston
3. Reallign the Wexford Inter-City Line so that:
(a) it skips inland skipping the Bray head tunnel
(b) it skips the scenic Avondale Valley {use old line for a heritage train}
(c) it swings around the southside through tallaght into Heuston
4. Let Sligo trains swing across from Maynooth to Hazelhatch and into Heuston.
5. Double the interconnector or build a second one for the outer non-DART commuters.
6. Make Heuston a huge hub where there is a dedicated platform for all lines and have all the computer services linked in a big underground station under St Johns road parallel to the 150 year old part of the station. (think Atocha station Madrid)
7. Kildare route increased to 4-6 lines all the way to Portarlington, or even Ballybrophy.
8. Close Connolly except for a commuter station on the Bray-Maynoth DART linking directly with the LUAS. See Buses
9. Open a WRC building a completely new route the fastest way between the biggest population centres right up to Letterkenny and Derry.
10. Open a few more of Corks closed railway lines with a hub somewhere.
11. DART to a park-n-ride somewhere the other side of Navan, Enfield & Edenderry, Drogheda and Kildare with Spur to Naas.

METRO
Link all major hospitals and third level institutions with major transport hubs (Green, Parnell Sq, Heuston, IFSC)

CITY BUSES (For Dublin, Galway, C**k etc.)
1. Open proper priority bus lanes:
(a) continue bus lanes right up and through junctions instead of stopping them short as done presently.
(b) Allow buses turn right from bus lanes
(c) change traffic light sequences to allow for the above.
2. Make all bus routes cross city except for expressos.
3. Put on lots of city imps feeding people to DART, Luas and Expresso buses.

COUNTRY BUSES
1. Stop all side of the street stopping for all "provincial" buses and make them all go to a big hub in Busaras and the old Connolly. This should include all the private operators. (Like Mexico City)
2. Let buses feed railway stations across the country and co-ordinate with train times, i.e. if you want to go to dingle there should be a bus waiting at farranfore for you.

OTHER GENERAL MEASURES
1. Tax people on their annual mileage. Add an extra factor for people living or working in congested areas.
2. Ban HGVs from all city/town centres, residential areas, the vicinity of schools.
3. Ban SUVs from all above places also.
4. Build by-passes/ ring-roads to facilitate the above.
5. Decentralise to places on the rail network.

HOW TO PAY FOR IT ***Nasty Bit****
1. Mileage tax as above (this might also push people onto public transport...)
2. Sell alot of buildings in city centre that currently hold civil servants. Build a new conference centre/hub over the rails between heuston and whatever that barracks on the SCR, islandbridge is called. Hold all meetings between public servants there and make them all come by train, including politicians and senior civil servants (cutting out travel expenses)
3. Everyone is going to get home that bit earlier, so ***very nasty bit*** get payback on this by increasing the working week by 0.5-1 hour. People who can should be allowed complete 1-2 hours of their working week remotely (home, train etc.) Lets face it, there is always some stuff that you don't need to be chained to the workplace to do.

Is that asking too much?

[ccos]

Is that asking too much?

Yes

[sean]

Oisin, sign me up for most of that except:

Originally Posted by Oisin88

3. Reallign the Wexford Inter-City Line so that:
...
(c) it swings around the southside through tallaght into Heuston
4. Let Sligo trains swing across from Maynooth to Hazelhatch and into Heuston.

Ok first of all Heuston as a long-distance service terminus is way overrated IMO. too far from the city centre and the developing docklands.
Second, many of the planned T21 lines will interchange with the Connolly based network, for example the Metro at Drumcondra.
Thirdly, the cost of these new alignments and infrastructure that would be necessary for a small number of trains would be quite large - you could do a heck of a lot more for the Sligo and Rosslare lines with a lot less.

Although new intercity alignments bypassing the DART to go to Heuston would have the benefit of segregating the Maynooth-Bray local services from long distance services, the service frequency of both does not require such drastic measures nor will it for some time. A middle-road passing loop system with short stretches of 3 or 4 tracks here and there would allow local services to be run frequently while express services overtake them as needed at the passing loops.

The Sligo/Longford and Rosslare/Gorey/Arklow lines should IMO be merged into a single set of Intercity and Commuter services.
This has the benefit of providing more 0-change and 1-change possibilities to the main destinations in Dublin city from both sides of the merged line.
Sligo/Longford gets direct trains to Tara St. (the busiest station in Ireland and closest to O'Connell Bridge) and Pearse station with interchange to the future Interconnector.
Arklow/Rosslare would get direct service to Drumcondra where passengers can change to the future Metro for the city centre, Northside, Airport and Swords.
None of that would be accomplished by sending said trains to Heuston.
Through running, eliminating the need for a train to turn around in Dublin city would also give IE more flexibility as to what classes of train to use.
It may even allow IE to sneak a few more DARTs through the Connolly bottleneck because Sligo/Longford trains bring practically everything to a halt when they approach/leave the terminal platfoms.

[Oisin88]

Originally Posted by sean

Oisin, sign me up for most of that

Duly signed up

except: Ok first of all Heuston as a long-distance service terminus is way overrated IMO. too far from the city centre and the developing docklands.

Heuston is more geographically central to where people live in Dublin. Long distance services aren't for everyday use.

(It's also near where I live)

Second, many of the planned T21 lines will interchange with the Connolly based network, for example the Metro at Drumcondra.

I would have the new Wexford line skirting across the southside and interchanging with the Luas green line somewhere near Sandyford (stretching it to Bray is a laugh) and with other southbound Metros & Luases. There would also be a non-stop heavy rail link to the airport.

Thirdly, the cost of these new alignments and infrastructure that would be necessary for a small number of trains would be quite large - you could do a heck of a lot more for the Sligo and Rosslare lines with a lot less.

Can't argue with the money, but then isn't this thread about forgetting the money.

Although new intercity alignments bypassing the DART to go to Heuston would have the benefit of segregating the Maynooth-Bray local services from long distance services, the service frequency of both does not require such drastic measures nor will it for some time. A middle-road passing loop system with short stretches of 3 or 4 tracks here and there would allow local services to be run frequently while express services overtake them as needed at the passing loops.

The new allignment would have the 3/4 track stretches from the start. Could run commuter services on this and also bring inter-city to Tallaght. It's population deserves that. It would also give you a faster way to the city centre through building faster lines. The existing line hugs the coast and meanders out to Dalkey and then back in.

The Sligo/Longford and Rosslare/Gorey/Arklow lines should IMO be merged into a single set of Intercity and Commuter services.

Excellent idea too. Obviously my scenario is completely hypothetical, but this would work.

[comcor]

Dublin: Most of the current programme, with the following changes

• Dublin Transportation Authority
• Build the airport spur from Portmarnock. Continue it to Swords and have it rejoin the mainline near Balbriggan. This would allow Dublin-Belfast InterCities to stop at the airport and allow services from Drogheda and Dundalk. Build a new planned town between the airport and Balbriggan
• Scrap the airport Metro.
• Build a substantial network of Luas lines to the extent that anyone inside the M50 is never more than 1km from a line
• Get the Heuston-Connolly LUAS underground.

Cork:

• Cork Transportation Authority
• Kent Station to face the Lee
• Luas Lines: Kent Station-UCC-CIT-Ballincollig (over Christy Ring [Opera House] Bridge and along the North Channel and the Mardyke. Ringaskiddy-Carrigaline-Airport-UCC-City Centre-Blackpool (or Kent Station switching onto the first line where they cross)
• Buses: Bus every 10 minutes on major suburban routes. Tickets for single journey, multiple journeys up to an hour (50% more expensive), multiple journeys to the end of the day (100% more expensive). Tickets usable on LUAS.
• Ferry bus to link lower harbour towns (Monkstown, Ringaskiddy, Crosshaven, Whitegate) to Cobh and the suburban rail network

Limerick:

• Bus proposals as Cork, but with a bus company for Limerick separate from BE
• Metro system developed on the unused rail lines around the city
• Demolishing Southill

Galway:

• Not really familiar enough with the city to comment, but Athenry suburban seems a no brainer and it should have its own bus company

Waterford:

• Times to suit commuting on existing lines into the city (Kilkenny, Clonmel and Rosslare). Development planned along these lines.
• Its own bus company (Maybe I should have said get BE out of the business of running city buses everywhere, have these run locally and leave BE to InterCity and Rural buses)

General:

• Reopen a lot of rural stations (Buttevant, Kilmallock, Knocklong, Dundrum etc.) and have these linked with 2 car sets timed to feed into the InterCity network.
• As a general principle, it should be possible to leave Dublin in the morning and get into Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford before 8:30am. This should apply for trips to Dublin too.

[BlahDeBlah]

I haven't seen anything about a river bus up/and down the Liffey (but then again I haven't looked much).

I've been living in London, and the system there seems OK. The Liffey represents a congestion free thoroughfare through the city.

Was this looked at in Transport 21?

[Thomas J Stamp]

It already exists, as a tourist trip. The tidal nature of the river would make the timetable a nightmare and predictability a no-no, unless a weir was constructed somewhere like Poolbeg.

These list things are a a great idea. Here's mine, wont be done but however.

1. CIE dosnt licence off its docklands property for housing and the like.
2. Build the interconnector
3. Have trains from Dublin to Belfast through the Phoenix Park Tunnel.
4. Massive lateral extension to Connolly where temp station is now, together with new underground station all west and south trains to stop there through PPT
5. Close Heuston, sell it to Developers.
6. Sell off Half of Inchicore, build massive apartment blocks on it.
7. Double Deck trains to Drougheda
8. Electricfy to Drougheda as well.
9. Electrify to Portlaoise.

Buses:

1. Congestion Charge within the NCR/SCR Dublin.
2. Move all west city bus teminii to the South Docklands area build a depot there like Harristown
3. All buses from Northside and Southside which go into the city centre are cross town routes.
4. Utilise the potential of Griffith Collins Avenues Northside, Kylemore Road and the like Southside (Geog of the Southside not my strong point)
5. Create a core network of around 30-40 routes that will be very high freq.
6. No cash on buses, no validators either, LUAS system only.
7. Vending machines on every street, cards available at every shop and pub.
8. Zonal fare system. Simple zones: Inner city zone, north city zone, south city zone, outer city zone, west city zone.
9. Demolish busaras, move depot to the new rail station at Docklands.

Others:

1. modily the constitutional provisions on private property to allow infrastructural developments which are in the public goos and certified to be so by a vote in the Oireachtas. This will also apply to specific areas, eg, anything within the M50 and not built on now will be built on, within the limits of good stratiegic guildlines on quality of life eg parks, shops, schools. The land will be vested in the state and leased back to developers who will be incentivised to develop that land in preferance to other land.

2. For every planning application for more than 5 houses a developer will have to pay heed to the dermographic trends of the area. Rhis may in effect force developers to build schools within their estates. Whenever a development of more than five houses (or a series of developments consisting of less then five developments but which are in proximity) is being considered by a planning authority the planning authority shall be obliged to notify the departnemt of Education, the local health authority and the local VEC and shall consider their observations in relation to that development.

3. Housing will be concentrated in towns and settlements that have their own sanitary and fresh water infrastructure in place after a set date to be determined by the Oireactas and that date shall be a nationwide date.

That's about it.

t21, in actual fact, all transport planning, is about moving people. We are facing a large logisical problem in moving people because many governments and local authorities have allowed our polulation to grow too disparsed. We have to fill in the gaps, otherwise we shall be seeing massive settlements starting everywhere.

It almost happend in Laois. Think about that. It would have been a total disaster and a nightmare.

The logjam is the constitutional provisions, for the common good, it has to be amended, otherwise we can throw our hat at it.

Sort it out, then move people. Adamstown, you know, could have been built at Newlands Cross. Why wasnt it?

[James Shields]

My fantasy T21...

More or less as T21 but...

Rail:
1. 4-track East Wall Junction to Malahide, plus add passing loops at stations like Skerries where room allows to allow non-stop trains to overtake stopping ones.
2. Electrify to Drogheda and Kildare.
3. Relay Belfast and Cork lines to be capable of at least 150mph (125mph is so last century).
4. Build airport spur and offer airport express service non-stop to Spencer Dock and then all stations to Heuston.
5. Reopen Navan-Drogheda.
6. Reopen Athlone-Mulingar.
7. Aim to achieve frequencies of 5 mins pean and 15 mins off-peak within 30km of city (Bray, Maynooth, Hazlehatch and Balbriggan).
8. Frequencies of 10 mins peak and 30 mins off-peak within 50km.

Metro:
1. Aim to build full orbital Metro.
2. Build central underground section as a single project to avoid multiple TBM insertions.
3. Continue south of Stephen's Green, splitting into southern branch connecting to existing Green line, and western branch to Harolds Cross and Tallaght.
4. Start Metro West from north, initially linking to Blanchardstown and Lucan.
5. Last section will link two arms of orbital metro. This means that metro will always be connected, removing need for multiple depots.
6. Continue Metro North to connect with Northern line, increasing opportunities for connections.

Luas:
1. New Luas route to connect Stephen's Green-Ranelagh to when rest of Green line converted to Metro. Possibly would connect to UCD and Stilorgan.
2. Continue Liffey Junction to Finglas, and on to connect with Metro (possibly at Metro Park).

Note that the above would give a total of 12 radial routes out of the city - 4 Rail (Drogheda, Maynooth, Kildare and Bray), 4 Metro (Swords, Blanchardstown/Liffey Valley, Tallaght and Cherrywood/Bray), and 4 Luas (Finglas, Lucan, Tallaght and Stilorgan).

City buses:
1. Build proper busways - either dedicated lanes the whole, or where possible dedicated streets. Send all buses through the city centre on a limited number of routes.
2. Provide quality interchange "hubs" where routes cross (preferably close to rail stations).
3. Remove all city centre termini and make all routes cross-city.
4. Make all buses cashless, and provide TVMs at the busiest stops, and make tickets available from all newsagents.
5. Provide electronic information signs at major stops.
6. Provide a high-frequency service and a reliable timetable.

General:
1. Create a proper, independent transport authority for Dublin.
2. Introduce a common zone and fare system across all operators (public and private).
3. Allow transfers between operators.
4. Restructure pricing to encourage more use of season tickets.
5. Introduce a "Travelcard".
6. Dramatically improve quality of passenger information, and make system easier to use.

Well, I can dream.

[Navan Junction]

Originally Posted by BlahDeBlah

I haven't seen anything about a river bus up/and down the Liffey (but then again I haven't looked much)

There is a paris-style bateaux-mouche or however you spell it there at the moment but I don't know frequency and cost?

After Island bridge you have wiers - but city centre withe liffey walls to avoid eroision, you'd be grand.. Could be cheaper then extending the Luas to the docks..!

[Rushed2nowhere]

(dartify means to upgrade a line to D.A.R.T. standard)
This would be my plan.The Navan Kingscourt line would bereopened once the line from Clonsilla to Navan is reopened.
A line would then go; Carrickmacross,Castleblaney,Monaghan,Omagh, Netownstewart, Strabane/Lifford with the station built over the river and then terminate in Letterkenny with a spur to Derry.
A new line would be built from Portadown going through Armagh, Monaghan, Enniskillen, Manorhamilton and Sligo.
A third line could then go Monaghan, Clones, Cavan and then join up with Connolly Sligo line at Edgeworthstown.
A fourth line would go Sligo,Bundoran, Ballyshannon, Donegal,Balybofey/Stranar, Castlefinn and Lifford/Strabane.. These lines would effectivly serve this area. .
I would propose another westren rail corridor. The line to Tuam to be built as proposed. From Tuam it would go to Ballyhaunis, Ballaghaderreen and then follow the track bed between Ballaghaderreen and the Sligo Connolly line. I would also build a line going from Ballyhaunis to Ballina via Knock airport, Swinford and then a new station in Foxford closer to the town centre. Manaulla junction could then be closed and any unused land sold off. The tracks between said junction and Foxford could be reused and then the land sold off.The present W.R.C. could finally be buried and again the land could be sold off.
Not sure the spur to Shannon airport would be good idea. I am not familiar with Galway.
The Limerick Ballybrophy line would be diverted just after Roscrea and go Mountrath, Mountmellick and Portarlington.
I would reopen the lines to Foynes and operate this as a commuter service
with stations at Foynes, Askeaton, Rathkeale, Adare, Patrickswell and then one or two more in the suburbs of Limerick.
I would also reopen the direct line between Patrickswell and Charleville.The Limerick to Rosslare harbour line should have much more services. I would propose five in each direction, with commuter services operating around Limerick and Waterford on this line.
Not familiar with Cork transport woes but I support the commuter overhaul and the redevelopment of Cork Kent to face the river. I think a line needs to be built to Ringaskiddy and the airport.
The line between Killarney and Tralee needs to straightened and Farranfore station to be located in the airport.
Closer to home a twin track tunnel between Bray and Greystones needs to be built. We could even use the T.B.M's from the interconnector tunnel. The line south of Greystones should be deviated inland to run just east of Kicoole and Newcastle with new stations in both towns. A new line would then be built between Wicklow and Arklow as straight as possible. Once this is completed six trains a day would run between Dublin and Rosslare Europort each way. The commuter services would continue using the present alignment and the line would be dartified to Wicklow from Dublin.
Pearse station needs a facelift/ properly cleaned/ revamped.
The line between Athlone and Mullingar would be reopened with all trains to Galway, Westport and Ballina leaving from Connolly. This would free up space out of Heuston and there are four lines between Connolly and Liffey junction. There's four platforms where trains could terminate in Connolly.
The viaduct at Drogheda would be double tracked. Dunleer station could be reopened. I support the “extend the D.A.R.T. campaign” but I think also it should be extended to Kildare and Drogheda. These lines need to be dartified as soon as possible that the commuter railcars can be freed up and used for Limerick, Cork, Waterford and Galway commuter services. At the moment the way I see it Iarnrod Eireann have two options either they buy more commuter railcars or they dartify the Maynooth, Kildare and Drogheda lines to provide more capacity.
I think one major obstacle is the fact that at the moment we are only just producing enough electricity at peak times to meet demand. One solution to this problem would be for Iarnrod Eireann to produce there own electricity by funding wind turbines, building there own power stations etc (this power would be for all pubic transport).
Another issue I.E. need to address is the pricing issue. Cork Dublin. return by rail is nearly €60 yet the same journey by bus is €18. Another thing is the huge difference between adult fares and child fares. Does everyone become magically rich when they turn 16? Most people nowadays do there leaving cert. In Switzerland up to the age of 16 you pay ½ price on all the trains and once you turn 16 you can pay 150 Swiss franks (€100) and continue to pay ½ price on all the rail services.
Also I would propose a survey of all the level crossings in Ireland. The survey would examine the cost of eliminating them, the effect they have on train speeds, safety etc. As with the roads the railways need to be realigned to make them as straight as possible to increase speed and safety.
To fund all this I would stop building motorways/dual carriage ways and concentrate on bypasses and 2+1 roads.