New high-speed Dublin-Belfast train planned

al2637 · 19-06-2006, 13:54

From Ireland.com:

Quote:

Plans for a high speed rail service that would cut the journey time between Dublin and Belfast to 90 minutes are being drawn up on both sides of the Border.

Keith Moffatt, chief executive of Northern Ireland's transport company, Translink, said it was working with Iarnrod Éireann on an outline "vision 2020" that would provide a non-stop 90-minute service departing at hourly intervals.

The cost of such a service, using 125mph trains and requiring an upgrade of the track, would be around €733 million, he said.

Journey times could be cut to 60 minutes with the use of 140mph tilting trains, Mr Moffatt added, but he expressed doubt that the €2 billion cost would be acceptable to politicians.

Unveiling Translink's vision for the future, he said Northern Ireland Railways and Iarnrod Éireann were working on a scheme to improve the main cross-Border service and that a preliminary report delivered recently confirmed that a high-speed, high-frequency service could be economically viable.

But he said it was all down to a question of money and how much the politicians would provide.

PA

Mark Gleeson · 19-06-2006, 13:59

Thats recycled and despite the text its more Keith Moffat's vision than NIR, note use of term 'outline'

Given Translink are so broke they can't even maintain the existing track and trains I wouldn't hold out much hope

For the record back in the 1930's a steam engine managed Belfast Dublin in 97 minutes with a stop in Lurgan, best time today is 115 minutes

The real news is two MK3 sets are to be deployed next year to ease the current problems and once the passengers get a spin on the MK3 they will start to complain like mad as finally they will realise the enterprise coaches are in fact horribly uncomfortable

PaulM · 19-06-2006, 15:47

I'm probably opening a can of worms here but...

It would be nice if they were to do this, upgrade Dublin - Cork and do some track work to allow Cork - Belfast via PPT.

Kevin K Kelehan · 19-06-2006, 15:58

It would be some service if you could have a train leave Cork bypass Heuston and call at Connolly before the driver went to the other end of the train and went for Belfast.

With a track upgrade could 3 hours 30- 3 hours 40 be acheived?

MrX · 19-06-2006, 16:07

I think whatever happens the Cork-Dublin-Belfast line should end up with the same stock. Please lets not do another DD enterprise!

What is the max speed of those DD coaches anyway? Thought they were limited to 90mph?

I'd suspect that the plan is to use the CAF design + buy a whole load of power cars for the CAF sets.

As it stands the enterprise is not much faster than a bus.

Are translink that broke?

Kevin K Kelehan · 19-06-2006, 16:23

Translink can still lever 75% EU subvention given their objective 1 status as can IE if it were to bring Dundalk as a border county an exclusive service to both Dublin & Belfast.

MrX · 19-06-2006, 16:27

The "Cobh - Larne" line is designated as a key Trans European Network (TEN) project anyway. IE and NIR should make use of this and upgrade the whole thing

James Shields · 21-06-2006, 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin K Kelehan

Translink can still lever 75% EU subvention given their objective 1 status as can IE if it were to bring Dundalk as a border county an exclusive service to both Dublin & Belfast.

The problem is, they still have to come up with the other 25%.

The DD coaches have a 90MPH top speed, and given a 29K can fill in for it and still make the timetable, it probably doesn't hit the top speed that much. It would be nice if some extra CAF coaches could be got for the Enterprise, as having one type of stock would simplify joining the Cork and Belfast routes.

Mark Gleeson · 21-06-2006, 11:03

Enterprise coaches can do 100mph but I don't think anyone would fancy trying that out

A DD set has only about 6hp/ton 29000 has over 9hp/ton and that makes a huge difference when it gets hilly

The 2 Dublin Cork Citygold sets are expected to take up duties between Dublin and Belfast in early 2007, being 5 tons a coach lighter and the locomotive having 500 hp more since a separate generator is available should reveal how bad the speed limits really are and will expose the horrible ride the DeDetrich coaches have

MrX · 21-06-2006, 11:09

How are NIR funded? It seems to be very strapped for cash.

At least they managed to get the new DMUs though, which has been a big improvement to local services up there. I remember getting a Belfast-Derry train a few years ago and it being one of the most run down, depessing trips I've ever taken. The IE Cravens looked and felt better maintained, at least they were busy!

Mark Gleeson · 21-06-2006, 11:22

One of the few things Stormont did was approve the C3K units, NIR is the only publically owned vertically integrated railways in the UK system its run on a shoe string, basically its IE time shifted back by 10-15 years

The C3K manages about 3,000 miles per failure, our 29k makes close to 30k. One of the problems the C3K has is the track is so bad to Derry that the air suspension requires so much air the compressor can't keep up and the brakes apply since the air pressure is too low

Its hard to imagine but Irish Rail look good in comparison, IE claim 60% of all Enterprise delays occur within NI, but the track is almost 50/50 (52.4% in the Republic)

James Shields · 21-06-2006, 12:11

I have been on the C3K. They are quite nice, and certainly a massive improvement on the old Class 80s. The interior is somewhat similar to a 2900, but with more seating and a little less standing room. The most noticable difference is that the sound insulation that keeps a lot of the noise out, and the improved suspension makes them a lot smoother.

The one problem with putting faster trains on the Enterprise is that the faster you go, the quicker you'll catch up with the many slower commuter trains on the line. 140MPH tilting trains would be wonderful, but you'd have to clear the whole line of traffic every time you wanted to send one out.

I think the best plan is the same one as the Cork line, start upgrading the track to UIC60 to allow future 200kph running, and start looking at adding some 3-track/4-track sections to allow faster trains to pass unhindered. In about ten years we could look at ordering the UK's HST2 trains.

Alan G · 21-06-2006, 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

The 2 Dublin Cork Citygold sets are expected to take up duties between Dublin and Belfast in early 2007, being 5 tons a coach lighter and the locomotive having 500 hp more since a separate generator is available should reveal how bad the speed limits really are and will expose the horrible ride the DeDetrich coaches have

Are they going to replace some of the DD sets or is it for additional services?

MrX · 22-06-2006, 07:43

That's if HST2 ever materialises.. the UK operators seem quite happy to just work with off-the-shelf pendelinos etc. Now that BR's gone and you've umpteen little operators, they're not all that concerned about R&D...

The UK hasn't really developed any serious new rail systems since the 1980s!

In terms of Intercity stuff, BR's MK4 was pretty much the end of the line for UK-built stuff.

Virgin's using off-the-shelf stuff from Italy etc and other operators are still using MK3 HST1s in various states of refurbishment / re-engined.

Considering that there are already tilting high speed DMUs available with excellent records, HST2 doesn't seem all that likely unless it's based around a pre-existing design.

Thomas J Stamp · 23-06-2006, 13:35

Alan G, additional services. No reason why the enterprise shouldnt be an hourly service when everything cascades downwards.

Alan G · 23-06-2006, 15:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomasjstamp

Alan G, additional services. No reason why the enterprise shouldnt be an hourly service when everything cascades downwards.

An hourly service with 5 sets would mean a 20 minute turnaround with the current journey time, doesn't leave much time for recovering delays.

19-06-2006, 16:07	#5
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	I think whatever happens the Cork-Dublin-Belfast line should end up with the same stock. Please lets not do another DD enterprise! What is the max speed of those DD coaches anyway? Thought they were limited to 90mph? I'd suspect that the plan is to use the CAF design + buy a whole load of power cars for the CAF sets. As it stands the enterprise is not much faster than a bus. Are translink that broke? Last edited by MrX : 19-06-2006 at 16:21.

22-06-2006, 07:43	#14
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	That's if HST2 ever materialises.. the UK operators seem quite happy to just work with off-the-shelf pendelinos etc. Now that BR's gone and you've umpteen little operators, they're not all that concerned about R&D... The UK hasn't really developed any serious new rail systems since the 1980s! In terms of Intercity stuff, BR's MK4 was pretty much the end of the line for UK-built stuff. Virgin's using off-the-shelf stuff from Italy etc and other operators are still using MK3 HST1s in various states of refurbishment / re-engined. Considering that there are already tilting high speed DMUs available with excellent records, HST2 doesn't seem all that likely unless it's based around a pre-existing design. Last edited by MrX : 22-06-2006 at 07:48.

23-06-2006, 13:35	#15
Thomas J Stamp Chairman/Publicity Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: The Home of Hurling Posts: 2,708	Alan G, additional services. No reason why the enterprise shouldnt be an hourly service when everything cascades downwards. __________________ We are the passengers

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19-06-2006, 13:59	#2
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Thats recycled and despite the text its more Keith Moffat's vision than NIR, note use of term 'outline' Given Translink are so broke they can't even maintain the existing track and trains I wouldn't hold out much hope For the record back in the 1930's a steam engine managed Belfast Dublin in 97 minutes with a stop in Lurgan, best time today is 115 minutes The real news is two MK3 sets are to be deployed next year to ease the current problems and once the passengers get a spin on the MK3 they will start to complain like mad as finally they will realise the enterprise coaches are in fact horribly uncomfortable

19-06-2006, 15:47	#3
PaulM Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 826	I'm probably opening a can of worms here but... It would be nice if they were to do this, upgrade Dublin - Cork and do some track work to allow Cork - Belfast via PPT.

19-06-2006, 15:58	#4
Kevin K Kelehan Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: West Tower Posts: 355	It would be some service if you could have a train leave Cork bypass Heuston and call at Connolly before the driver went to the other end of the train and went for Belfast. With a track upgrade could 3 hours 30- 3 hours 40 be acheived?

19-06-2006, 16:23	#6
Kevin K Kelehan Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: West Tower Posts: 355	Translink can still lever 75% EU subvention given their objective 1 status as can IE if it were to bring Dundalk as a border county an exclusive service to both Dublin & Belfast.

19-06-2006, 16:27	#7
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	The "Cobh - Larne" line is designated as a key Trans European Network (TEN) project anyway. IE and NIR should make use of this and upgrade the whole thing

21-06-2006, 11:03	#9
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	Enterprise coaches can do 100mph but I don't think anyone would fancy trying that out A DD set has only about 6hp/ton 29000 has over 9hp/ton and that makes a huge difference when it gets hilly The 2 Dublin Cork Citygold sets are expected to take up duties between Dublin and Belfast in early 2007, being 5 tons a coach lighter and the locomotive having 500 hp more since a separate generator is available should reveal how bad the speed limits really are and will expose the horrible ride the DeDetrich coaches have

21-06-2006, 11:09	#10
MrX Really Regular Poster Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 585	How are NIR funded? It seems to be very strapped for cash. At least they managed to get the new DMUs though, which has been a big improvement to local services up there. I remember getting a Belfast-Derry train a few years ago and it being one of the most run down, depessing trips I've ever taken. The IE Cravens looked and felt better maintained, at least they were busy!

21-06-2006, 11:22	#11
Mark Gleeson Technical Officer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Coach C, Seat 33 Posts: 12,669	One of the few things Stormont did was approve the C3K units, NIR is the only publically owned vertically integrated railways in the UK system its run on a shoe string, basically its IE time shifted back by 10-15 years The C3K manages about 3,000 miles per failure, our 29k makes close to 30k. One of the problems the C3K has is the track is so bad to Derry that the air suspension requires so much air the compressor can't keep up and the brakes apply since the air pressure is too low Its hard to imagine but Irish Rail look good in comparison, IE claim 60% of all Enterprise delays occur within NI, but the track is almost 50/50 (52.4% in the Republic)

21-06-2006, 12:11	#12
James Shields Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Drogheda, Ireland Posts: 1,275	I have been on the C3K. They are quite nice, and certainly a massive improvement on the old Class 80s. The interior is somewhat similar to a 2900, but with more seating and a little less standing room. The most noticable difference is that the sound insulation that keeps a lot of the noise out, and the improved suspension makes them a lot smoother. The one problem with putting faster trains on the Enterprise is that the faster you go, the quicker you'll catch up with the many slower commuter trains on the line. 140MPH tilting trains would be wonderful, but you'd have to clear the whole line of traffic every time you wanted to send one out. I think the best plan is the same one as the Cork line, start upgrading the track to UIC60 to allow future 200kph running, and start looking at adding some 3-track/4-track sections to allow faster trains to pass unhindered. In about ten years we could look at ordering the UK's HST2 trains.