Green Party Proposals

[Thomas J Stamp]

We are waiting to hear back from them that their election proposals are the same as is here https://greenparty.ie/wp-content/upl...olicy-2015.pdf because thats where their election 2016 link leads one to.

at least they have a document which is more than the other parties, even if its from 2013, and there is almost 4 pages devoted to rail transport within.

[Traincustomer]

When I wrote to a prominent member of the abovementioned party in 2010 regarding the then upcoming proposal to suspend Rosslare-Waterford services I didn't have the courtesy of a reply.

I am aware I'm far from being alone in viewing this party in a totally different light as a direct result of their apparent massive disinterest in South Wexford and its wider context/potential.

People remember the times when others couldn't give a toss.


Aside: thanks to Thomas for creating this section

[Thomas J Stamp]

ciaran cuffe got back to us

Our transport policy is largely unchanged from 2013.

We did however publish a 12 point plan for Dublin transport today.

A key issue is diverting significant capital funding from road to public transport including rail.

the 12 point plan for dublin transport is here

https://greenparty.ie/news/greens-la...ffic-gridlock/

“The Green Party are proposing to invest massively in bus, cycling and walking infrastructure to solve this problem. This is desperately needed, since extension of rail capacity, like the DART Underground and Metro North, has been postponed for a decade by the current Government.

We need to invest immediately in the bus, cycling and pedestrian network while we start planning for the Metro, Dart Interconnector and additional Luas lines.

so not massive stuff, but therein lies a commitment to DART underground anyway. (although metro and luas thrown in too as well as BRT elsewhere)

[James Howard]

Does anybody know what precisely a Metro is in the context of Dublin and why is it regarded as somehow different to other modes.

In the boom, it seemed to mean heavy rail running on continental gauge but now it seems to be a slightly sexed-up partially underground tram that presumable won't interoperate with anything else in the city.

Why do we persist in adding modes and artificial disconnects to what is really a very sparse public transport network rather than trying to integrate it properly?

I think a core part of any of the public transport plans should be proper fare and timetable integration between different transport modes. There seems to be a move on towards this with multi-mode capping but at the rate they are going it will be years before that is sorted.

Is there any valid reason why we can't move to a system where you just purchase transport between point A and point B and how you get there is your own business. Fine, if you want to treat railways as a "first-class" option and charge a bit extra for it, but if you've paid for the more expensive option, it is in CIE's favour if you choose the cheaper option.

For me, there is a great Bus Eireann service that provides a morning bus that gets me to the airport in time for nearly any flight and a great evening service that allows me the possibility of staying in Dublin until 11PM. The problem is that it doesn't stop at my station, where I can pick up my car and I need pay for a ticket on it. I have considered buying the All services ticket, but that is too much extra for a service that I'd use a dozen times a year but would still be a big attraction to have on my ticket. The result is that I generally avoid the bus and take up a more expensive seat on the last train.

[Thomas J Stamp]

A metro in the contact of Dublin is whatever is the cheapest option that they can come up with. This isnt new. When the 39 bus became the first city swift service it was stocked with brand new buses, brand new bus shelters and a rudimentary form of PIS - the busses were even supposed to have a traffic light priority thing built in.

By the time the number 13 bus was branded city swift all it consisted of was painting the oldest buses in Summerhill garage in the livery, all the other bells and whistles having been dropped. soon after they were all painted fleet green and the concept was abolished.

Same with Metro. This time around Metro isn't defined, RUI can recall three different versions of "metro" going back to the P11 times. Since it'll never be built it may as well be made from gold plated trains driven by quasi-dimensional superbeings with some time on their hands.

[Mark Gleeson]

Metro for Dublin is basically a dedicated alignment with no conflicts from other traffic.

Its a low floor tram like train, but longer, still legal for on street use if required , e.g. at the very extremes of the route

So its kind of like the German Stadtbahn model of a dedicated core route with bits on the end. Try Dusseldorf, the underground section is full metro, with automatic train driving, the bits at the end are Luas like

[James Howard]

So basically, Green line Luas? Or something more like the original Suas, SÃ*os Luas from back in the day?

Is there a reason why this needs to be operated under separate branding and presumable with separate ticketing, commuter passes and branding?

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by James Howard

So basically, Green line Luas? Or something more like the original Suas, SÃ*os Luas from back in the day?

Is there a reason why this needs to be operated under separate branding and presumable with separate ticketing, commuter passes and branding?

because of the usual lack of joined up thinking. it would have to be leap-able.

given the way technology is going there should be cashless public transport anyway. be easy for example for the DSW to send out a Social Welfare Leap Card.

what you need to do is announce a year zero date about 2 years in advance, just say from this date onwards the leap or nothing. it worked with Saoirview.

[James Shields]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

given the way technology is going there should be cashless public transport anyway. be easy for example for the DSW to send out a Social Welfare Leap Card.

what you need to do is announce a year zero date about 2 years in advance, just say from this date onwards the leap or nothing. it worked with Saoirview.

Totally agree, though in London you can use contactless debit cards as well as Oyster. We should do the same rather than force tourists to buy Leap cards.

[berneyarms]

Only UK contactless cards can be used in London. You still need either a visitor Oyster or (usually better) a normal Oyster card if visiting from outside the UK.

Given that at least one of the main banks here hasn't even started rolling out contactless cards yet, it won't be happening here on public transport as the norm anytime soon.

Also remember that tourists can get a visitor LEAP card in Dublin.

[Mark Gleeson]

Any contactless card should work in London, Bank of Ireland and Permanent TSB certainly work. Downside is the nasty fees for a non euro zone transaction.

[James Howard]

Leap for yet another transport network in Dublin is only part of the solution. You'll still end up paying the guts of a tenner from Drumcondra (or thereabouts) to Ranelagh return if they are independent systems.

I agree 100% on the whole cashless thing but it would need to be possible to use a contactless card or NFC phone for very occasional users. Buying a Leap card shouldn't be a big deal for tourists particularly if they can get them in the airport. If they were mandatory, it would relatively difficult to get out the airport without buying one.

I've had an Oyster card for years and I only go to London every couple of years - it's still worth keeping.

[comcor]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

because of the usual lack of joined up thinking. it would have to be leap-able.

given the way technology is going there should be cashless public transport anyway. be easy for example for the DSW to send out a Social Welfare Leap Card.

what you need to do is announce a year zero date about 2 years in advance, just say from this date onwards the leap or nothing. it worked with Saoirview.

We need to make sure all services that are available for free travel users are LEAP enabled first. Rural bus services and InterCity rail don't even seem to have a roadmap yet.

When that is done give 2 years notice.

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson

Any contactless card should work in London, Bank of Ireland and Permanent TSB certainly work. Downside is the nasty fees for a non euro zone transaction.

You're right - some do now work.

But you'd want your head examined to use them due to the transaction fees.

https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payment...on-this-page-1

[Thomas J Stamp]

we're getting off topic somewhat, but that can be done within the two years.

of course for dublin we should abolish the stage system for bus fares, the station fares for rail and and have zones for all. since the NTA sets the fares this shouldnt be a problem either.

when you consider the main problem with leap was the turf fighting between the various companies i wouldnt be expecting zonal fares outlide the luas anytime soon

[berneyarms]

Originally Posted by Thomas J Stamp

we're getting off topic somewhat, but that can be done within the two years.

of course for dublin we should abolish the stage system for bus fares, the station fares for rail and and have zones for all. since the NTA sets the fares this shouldnt be a problem either.

when you consider the main problem with leap was the turf fighting between the various companies i wouldnt be expecting zonal fares outlide the luas anytime soon

It would require the entire funding model to change, and the constituent company's finances returning to stability, which they are some way from at this stage.

[James Howard]

Actually, I think this is very much on topic. No political party seems to be pushing a move towards zone-based transport, yet in my opinion, this would be the single most important thing they could do for the city's transport system - especially when Luas BXD comes on stream. There is potential for huge flexibility and far greater benefit to everyone from BXD if there was proper multi-mode ticketing.

This policy would cost very little money to implement - there might be a slight drop in farebox revenue, but it would make public transport so much more attractive at no actual investment cost.

But berneyarms is right, the entire funding model would need to change and this should happen. I would quite happily chip in another few hundred a year on my annual ticket to have the freedom of travel mode. It would almost be like living in a city with a proper transport system to be able to hop off a Longford train at Broombridge and travel across to Ranelagh with just a short walk between platforms. If they went the whole hog, I would be able to take a train up in the morning, go for a couple of beers after work and get the 11 o'clock bus home.

Of course, based on recent history, I'll probably be chipping in another few hundred a year anyway for nothing extra.

[Colm Moore]

Originally Posted by James Howard

Does anybody know what precisely a Metro is in the context of Dublin and why is it regarded as somehow different to other modes.

"Metro" is a specific designation in legislation, parallel to "light rail". However, it is undefined and so has little legal or practical meaning.

[James Howard]

Originally Posted by Colm Moore

"Metro" is a specific designation in legislation, parallel to "light rail". However, it is undefined and so has little legal or practical meaning.

That's pretty much what I thought. Basically it's a buzz word that Politicians and throw about without actually committing to anything.

[Thomas J Stamp]

Originally Posted by berneyarms

It would require the entire funding model to change, and the constituent company's finances returning to stability, which they are some way from at this stage.

more than do able in two years - the only way to bring any of the CIE companies finances back to stability is for the subvention to be run at realistic levels. Something which most of the party proposals have agreed upon.

once you have an agreed uniform funding model, all using leap cards, it becomes more attractive, usable, flexible and is a growth potential measure.