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Unread 16-02-2007, 10:35   #1
hhf8
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Default Mk3 future?

Does anyone know what the future is for these?are they going to be scrapped or refurbished. To me it seems a waster to scrap them. Most jouneys i've had with them have been pleasant. They're only as old as the lhb darts?
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Unread 16-02-2007, 11:02   #2
shweeney
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word on the street is they're going to be scrapped or sold as they are surplus to requirements once the new intercity stock arrives, and because they are airconditioned they can't easily be put into storage. Probably won't happen for a few years though.
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Unread 16-02-2007, 11:49   #3
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For a start, I assume the Push-pull Mk IIIs are to be retained. This means that retaining at least some of the ordinary Mk IIIs makes some sense (common parts, etc etc).

There should be a role for at least 2 MkIII sets if the Belfast service is to be seriously enhanced. There is at present a standby MKII set at Connolly; should it graduate to a MK III? Also while the Cork service has 7 MKIVs in service with one on standby, this will not always be possible when the standby is in for serious repairs, so you will need a MK III standby at Heuston. Finally there might be demand for one or two MK III sets if the 6-car Rotem sets are not enough for the principal Intercity routes.

So there is a case for retention and possible serious refurbishment of maybe half the MK III fleet. However IE don't seem to do refurbishment very well; they prefer to get lots of free capital from the Exchequer for new stock. There will be plenty of locos for the MK IIIs; the only problem is increased operating costs for running around and increased track wear. I would like to see a serious study of the costs and benefits of MK III retention versus the alternatives.
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Unread 17-02-2007, 09:08   #4
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Default Save the Mark III's

Was on a Mark III recently for the first time in a while recently. Was very impressed with the ride quality however the interiors are begining to look a little tatty.

I would love to see IE refurbish these carriages as they are reliable and very comfortable. In the UK Mark III's which are ever older than IE's are still in existence. IN Continental Europe I suspect that there is still a lot of Rolling Stock which dates from the 70's and the 80's'

What strikes me about the Mark III's is that to me they seem to have aged better than the DBE De Dietrich carriages which have become very shabby over the last ten years. The other issue is that Mark III's are much more reliable that the De Dietrich sets currently in use.

The advantages of having a large stock of MK III's is that IE can easily add additional services or have larger trains where necessary. Would personally like to see IE get rid of the De Dietrich stock and replaced with refurbished MK III's. Could have an hourly service with more reliable rolling stock.

P.S. I believe that the Cravens are finally gone! They where in existence for nearly 40 years. While dated, they certainly the most comfortable rolling stock on IE's rail network. They will be missed.
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Unread 17-02-2007, 23:05   #5
Thomas J Stamp
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I understand that the push pulls are being kept, will do Thurles/Athlone/Kilkenny length commuter services

City gold sets from Cork should be going to augment the Belfast Services Cu Na Mara maybe as well.

apart from that - bye bye.
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Unread 17-02-2007, 23:06   #6
Thomas J Stamp
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I understand that the push pulls are being kept, will do Thurles/Athlone/Kilkenny length commuter services

City gold sets from Cork should be going to augment the Belfast Services Cu Na Mara maybe as well.

apart from that - bye bye.

Oh, and although you dont see them Cravens are still in the timetable, not gone yet!
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Unread 19-02-2007, 11:57   #7
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Mark what's the breakdown of errors on Enterprise sets - do the carriages themselves fail or is it that old saw about the engine providing electric power - some are but I thought that had been worked out and most of the issues were now due to other causes
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Unread 19-02-2007, 12:12   #8
Mark Gleeson
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Locomotive failures are now quite rare since IE took over total responsibility for maintenance, the current overhaul program in Inchicore is making a difference. Its of the order 4 to 5 times improvement as a result of this

Coach problems are serious
Parking brakes are a serious problem. Originally the Enterprise brakes where a single disk per axle, about 5 years ago a program began to add a second brake disk, this obviously doubled the number of sensors

Sensors of course are troublesome and result in some fun experiences where the brakes won't release, they release but stay locked on, on one coach (real fun) or they lock on at speed. Now NIR is taking its time to fit a new pressure sensor to fix the problem, this explains the missing coach

The suspension is utterly crap, the Mk4 suspension was bad in its early days but IE managers where very happy to say it was still so much better than enterprise. It lacks any serious lateral resistance so when it takes a corner of which there are many on the Belfast line it sways around, a Mk3 doesn't nor does a Mk4

At only 28 coaches its a small fleet, non standard parts are a problem. In comparison Mk3 parts are plentiful

The Mk3 might be 25 years older in design terms but it just works, its lighter, goes faster than anything else IE have, only serious problem is the interior which needs a total replacement at this stage
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Unread 19-02-2007, 14:08   #9
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Has Irish Rail given any thought to what they're going to do with all their 201 locos after they scrap virtually all of their pull-only trains?

I'd like to see spare Mk3s being used on the long distance commuter routes from Connolly. The 29ks IMO simply aren't fit for any journey over an hour, and whenever I've used the Longford Commuter service off-peak it's been empty while a comparable Intercity service would have had a decent loading.

That may have changed now that they're ALL commuter trains but you get the idea. I'm sure its a similar story on other very long commuter routes - only used when absolutely unavoidable.

I don't mean terminating and starting these (Mk3 commuter) trains at Connolly because IE rightly doesn't want to do that - instead leftover pull only trains could run through between Longford/Dundalk and points South. A 201 locomotive can go to Longford and Dundalk (obviously) and I'm sure they can go a good way down the Rosslare Europort line as well.

I mean, they're going to throw these things out right? Might as well see if they could be used productively first.
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Unread 19-02-2007, 15:00   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sean View Post
Has Irish Rail given any thought to what they're going to do with all their 201 locos after they scrap virtually all of their pull-only trains?
There won't be enough locos left to run any pull only is more or less the result

Price to hold onto a Mk3 coach is running at 300,000 euro each in refurbishment costs, after the first two or three sets you can add say 500,000 euro extra for each 071 overhaul you would need

Now balance that against the following issues
1. Fridays only is slowly being chopped in favour of a clockface all week timetable
2. If things get really really tight the RPSI are lining themselves up as a spot hire outfit with what looks to be 3 full sets of go anywhere coaches, perfect for GAA specials and concerts

Unless someone fronts the cash Mk3 is gone and by 2009 passengers will be moaning about them since once you step on a Mk4 there is no going back to a Mk3 its such a step forward in passenger experience
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Unread 19-02-2007, 15:21   #11
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What would a mk3 refurbishment constitute? Would it just be re-doing the interior?or would you need to widen the doors for wheelchair access and the like?

It just seems a shame that a good set of carriages will be scrapped while the enterprise(which i got recently) is falling apart. There's one set that seems to be peppered by a machine gun
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Unread 19-02-2007, 15:33   #12
Mark Gleeson
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Minimum
Total interior replacement
Full mechanical and electrical overhaul
Corrosion treatment
New wheelchair accessible toilet and retention tank (legal requirement)
PIS and CCTV (legal requirement)
New seats
New glass to modern standards (legal requirement)
RVAR door controls, chimes etc (legal requirement)

Possibles
New door mechanism
New gangways
26kW AC units, currently 24.5kW
Push pull sockets

In simple terms take a Mk4 interior stick it in a Mk3 less the computer bits. Mk4 shows all the signs the CAF used the Mk3a as a design reference

What we have is a coach good on technical design and performance but is quickly becoming substandard in terms of expectations. If they are scrapped before 2016 (thats the date pencilled in 6 years ago) we will be in trouble we know that but if the government put up the cash for all new when the time comes its win win for the passengers

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 19-02-2007 at 15:40.
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Unread 21-02-2007, 21:27   #13
dowlingm
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Mark G

I guess the question is how much lifespan you buy for your 300k refurb as opposed to buying additional Mk4 stock (and a DVT or two presumably). Does IE have any Mk4 options and if so at what price?

What are the deadlines for the items you mention as legal requirements? Are any of the 26/27/28xx series noncompliant in a way that will force refit?

Last edited by dowlingm : 21-02-2007 at 21:30. Reason: edit because I mistook the 071 figure for the Mk3
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Unread 21-02-2007, 21:38   #14
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Legal requirements on accessibility are fuzzy basically IE said they would but they don't do the full job and of course we have solid proof of this its sitting outside the shed in Fairview

UK are spending up to €300k per coach on HST carriages which are already pushing 30 years. Option on 24 more Mk4 coaches €42-45 million or basically the cost to totally refit the entire IE Mk3 fleet and have a lot of change

So money wise assuming a 35 year life there is at least 12 years left in the IE batch
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Unread 12-03-2007, 20:50   #15
hhf8
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I know this question now seems pointless,but would a refurb effect the structure of a mk3,ie make it weaker?
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