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Unread 06-07-2007, 10:26   #1
ACustomer
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Default Confused Reporting

Yesterday morning RTE had an interview by Aine Lawlor with John Henry of the DTO about a survey which purported to show very large reductons in car usage (c. 30% to 50%) in areas served by LUAS. He was also asked about integrated ticketing and said that he was sure that the new Minister for Transport would deliver on this. Later in the programme the other presenter came on with some pretty damning facts about the integrated ticketing fiasco.

Also yesterday the Irish Times reported on a LUAS survey which was supposed to indicate a 2% drop in car usage in areas served by LUAS, compared with a 4% increase in other areas. Is this the same report? If so how come there are such apparently different interpretations? Given the ineptitude of transport journalism I sometimes wonder can these guys read reports properly.

Then to cap it all the Irish Times in its report on Metro West to-day (July 6), says that Dempsey has promised that intergared ticketing will be in place for Metro West when it commences services in 2014. Another seven years !!!!

Somehow Dempsey's promise has a horrible ring of truth. Anyhow I hope that this provides P11 an opportunity to clear up the confusion and to flay some of those responsible.
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Unread 06-07-2007, 11:19   #2
Thomas J Stamp
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Yes, well, sometime today I'll get a chance to read the entire DTO report (bye bye lunch hour) and we'll do something on it.

I have seen four different reports on this now.

Leaving aside any reports, and going on my own experience on the Red Line it has not lead to any decrease in Car traffic and usage. It has affected the buses - a situation that should start to reverse next week with the new bus land along Arran Quay - in Tallaght, and also the 48/14's.

I'm not going to repeat myself again about dedicated busways instead of LUAS and the city getting jarred on the spare change it's beyond Bill Murray at this stage.
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Unread 06-07-2007, 11:35   #3
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It has affected the buses - a situation that should start to reverse next week with the new bus land along Arran Quay - in Tallaght, and also the 48/14's.
I see this every morning at Heuston, people will walk by an empty 90 to squash onto a packed Luas and anyone 'up in Dublin for the day' now ignore the buses completely.
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Unread 06-07-2007, 15:31   #4
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The indo and RTE interpretation of the reports were entirely opposite.

On the Metro West announcement article on last nights RTE six one news, integrated ticketing was reported as being delivered in two years. I nearly vomitted in my own scorn. There's an ITS project manager position advertised on the RPA website at the moment with a contract period of 3 years. Not sure whether that means anything....
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Unread 06-07-2007, 15:42   #5
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Erm................

That report is 79 pages long.

It is very interesting. Lots of people walk apparently.
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Unread 06-07-2007, 21:12   #6
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Thats interesting. They gave me an 8 page report.

Light version with logos removed.
Attached Files
File Type: doc LuasStudysummaryDTOJuly52007 - light version.doc (204.5 KB, 936 views)

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Unread 07-07-2007, 11:01   #7
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Originally Posted by 2Funki4Wheelz View Post
I see this every morning at Heuston, people will walk by an empty 90 to squash onto a packed Luas and anyone 'up in Dublin for the day' now ignore the buses completely.
This is partly to do with the fact that you never know when the bus is going to move, and by how much, that you have to pass by a grumpy driver and a packed luas is much less claustraphobic than even a half empty bus. At least with the luas it says next tram in X minutes.

I actually don't know why people still take the 90.
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Unread 07-07-2007, 11:30   #8
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With the bus lane now in place 90 will get a new lease of life, its still cheaper than the Luas and it can be a lot faster

There has been a marginal drop in car usage on the Luas lines, that is course in contrast to the increase elsewhere

Luas has resulted in a massive take up in discretionary travel for shopping and leisure, I have seen very detailed numbers and the social and economic benefits go a whole lot deeper than a few cars off the road.

The quality of journalism in this field is very hit and miss, yes it is hard to explain this stuff but the blind belief in the numbers that come out of various spokespeople need to be verified

My favourite one is "Irish Rail spend up to 100 million a year repairing the damage from overhead bridge strikes"

Hmm thats interesting since the entire track and works infrastructure maintenance cost shown the annual accounts in less than 70 million per year
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Unread 07-07-2007, 21:27   #9
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Originally Posted by 2Funki4Wheelz View Post
I see this every morning at Heuston, people will walk by an empty 90 to squash onto a packed Luas and anyone 'up in Dublin for the day' now ignore the buses completely.
Like Oisin said, trains (even crush-loaded) are a much nicer way to travel for lots of people: easier to board, easier to get off, no worrying about knowing where your stop is (for anyone 'up in Dublin for the day'), no fighting through a crowd to get off before the driver pulls off, no worrying about the driver lurching off as you're going up the stairs or lurch-breaking when you're coming down the stairs.Also the ticket machines take notes and give change.
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Unread 07-07-2007, 21:33   #10
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Of course it shouldn't matter about the tickets and change since everyone disembarking at Heuston could have got the Luas and/or Bus added on their ticket at a discounted rate either at the station they boarded at or onboard

And it is advertised at booking offices and can be bought online
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Unread 09-07-2007, 00:03   #11
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Mark G`s point about the increase in Discretionary travel post Luas is interesting.
It also underlines just how poor we Irish really are at recognising and developing opportunities in Public Transport.

Ranelagh is a prime example of this lack of appreciation.
This is one of the few remaining true "Village Quarters" of Dublin and has in the immediate aftermath of Luas developed a new lease of life,particularly as a Restaurant area.

Sadly however,nobody associated with the City Administration has realized what new potential now exists to renew and develop afresh here.
It`s difficult to believe that not a single effort was made to reduce or remove private car traffic from the Ranelagh Village area.

Indeed the general private car dimension in Ranelagh has,it appears,spun wildly out of control with little evidence of any official interest.
Private Cars and all that come with them have taken Total control of the Village at all times now and particularly at weekends.
Instead of supporting local businesses by removing car park spaces,extending footpaths and providing circulation space for pedestrians,the authorities insist on preserving the dominance of the Private Car.

Sadly the exact same scenario now prevails in Dundrum village where the Local Authority appears happy to preside over the withering away of the "Old" Village in favour of the new "Town Centre" closer to Balally Luas stop.

No vision,No dream,No interest....Pretty much sums up Irish Public Administration in the 21st Century ??
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Unread 09-07-2007, 09:20   #12
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With the bus lane now in place 90 will get a new lease of life, its still cheaper than the Luas and it can be a lot faster
Got the 90 this morning, very quick - in spite of other comments about comfort, I'm sick of being elbowed in the head on the Luas or having the life squeezed out of me when an extra few people crush on just as the doors close. I got a seat and I have bus/luas on my monthly ticket anyway. The 90 leaves at set times in the morning, the problem is it sits there for a long time prior to its departure so you can end up sitting there looking out the window at Luasanna (?) going by. A digital display (for the buses) at Heuston might entice a few more people onto the 90.

The Luas is great but the with the bus lane the 90 isn't really that far behind it anymore.
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Unread 09-07-2007, 15:53   #13
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A digital display (for the buses) at Heuston might entice a few more people onto the 90.
I haven't been at Heuston for quite some time now, but I agree with 2Funki that a few small (dare I say it, common sense) changes would do wonders for the 90. A digital display is the obvious choice, both at the station and on the bus itself. Of course, there's no reason why this should be limited to the 90 route.
Is the 90 still a double decker? If so, why? Buses for train stations and airports should usually be long bendy buses, considering that many of their passengers have suitcases.
Would also be nice if DB would use an open access system for the 90, like is used for the Luas.
Of course, all this would turn the 90 into a Luas on rubber wheels, which I believe Thomas J Stamp and others have been advocating for a while.
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Unread 09-07-2007, 16:02   #14
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Bendybuses are no good for Heuston since they take up a lot of space. 2 bendybuses are about the same as 3 double deckers which offer more seats. As it stands you can hold 4 or 5 double deckers in front of Heuston, 3 on the Luas stop and one or ever two outside Heuston itself plus another handful in the car park

The luggage issue doesn't appear to be a issue on the 747/748 anyway the majority of passengers on the 90 are commuters unlike the 747/748.

The boarding issue is down the fact the majority of passengers still elect to pay cash despite the fact every single passenger inbound to Heuston had the option to get the 90/Luas included, it is advertised.

It is true the 90 route has lost a lot of custom, particularly at off peak to Luas its still essental at rush hours we have the math and combined it won't be enough for expected rail passenger numbers
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Unread 09-07-2007, 16:11   #15
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The 90 has been bendybus in the past - it has also been single deck as well. Obvously BAC are of the opinion that the Double Deckers are the best option.

Also, there was a Digital Display on some of the buses from the same depot that the 90 is from (the 25's) around the corner on parkgate street - worked fairly well - so the technology is there for them and should be utilised post haste.
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Unread 09-07-2007, 16:15   #16
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Also, there was a Digital Display on some of the buses from the same depot that the 90 is from (the 25's) around the corner on parkgate street - worked fairly well - so the technology is there for them and should be utilised post haste.
There was a trial of a bus tracking system on the Lucas buses a few years ago but the government wouldn't fund an expansion of the system so it fell apart. Most of the new buses don't have GPS transmitters fitted and since they're in the middle of preparing for the installation of an entirely different RTIS system, there's not a hope they'd spend money resurrecting an old system, even for one route.

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The luggage issue doesn't appear to be a issue on the 747/748
That's because anyone with luggage sits (or stands) downstairs where they can keep an eye on in and also because those buses are two stoppers so it doesn't matter if it takes forever an a day for everyone to get off.

Quote:
The boarding issue is down the fact the majority of passengers still elect to pay cash despite the fact every single passenger inbound to Heuston had the option to get the 90/Luas included, it is advertised.
This was brought up here before and someone pointed out that it could easily be solved by having staff at outer stations ask passengers if they'd like the add-on instead of relying on them to know about it's existence.

Last edited by markpb : 09-07-2007 at 16:17.
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Unread 09-07-2007, 16:22   #17
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This was brought up here before and someone pointed out that it could easily be solved by having staff at outer stations ask passengers if they'd like the add-on instead of relying on them to know about it's existence.
The big green sticker on the booking office window does the job, seen them all over the country

If you book online to 'Dublin City Centre' it adds the Luas fare
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Unread 09-07-2007, 16:52   #18
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Bendybuses are no good for Heuston since they take up a lot of space. 2 bendybuses are about the same as 3 double deckers which offer more seats. As it stands you can hold 4 or 5 double deckers in front of Heuston, 3 on the Luas stop and one or ever two outside Heuston itself plus another handful in the car park
Luas takes up a lot of space, the difference being that money was available to change the layout and make space. Saying that bendy buses are "no good for Heuston" seems a bit harsh to me, but I'm the first to admit that I'm not an expert in the area.

Quote:
The boarding issue is down the fact the majority of passengers still elect to pay cash despite the fact every single passenger inbound to Heuston had the option to get the 90/Luas included, it is advertised.
If you build it, they will come. Translation: add a few ticket inspectors and create open access and commuters will get the idea, particularly on a dedicated commuter route such as the 90. Proof = Luas, me thinks?
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Unread 09-07-2007, 17:00   #19
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since they're in the middle of preparing for the installation of an entirely different RTIS system, there's not a hope they'd spend money resurrecting an old system, even for one route.
I'm not going to even ask why they replaced one system that works..... and why it's taking so long.... with another one, and you know what, I don't care either.

Whatever bloody system they have should be implemented post haste!!!
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Unread 09-07-2007, 20:23   #20
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The big green sticker on the booking office window does the job, seen them all over the country
Clearly it doesn't since you said passengers insist on paying cash at Heuston Most people don't look around them, don't read notices and even if they did, they're usually reading them after they've asked for their ticket. This could so easily be solved by every single ticket seller asking passengers going to Dublin if they'd like the Luas / Bus add-on. Sorry, it'd be simple if it wasn't Irish Rail.

Thomas: I agree they should but like Irish Rail, DB's every infrastructure move is regulated by DoT and the Ministers whim. No whim or no votes = no money.
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