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Unread 04-07-2008, 14:12   #1
Derek Wheeler
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Default Luas Red Line

Does anyone else think that the closure of the red line in the connolly area is disgraceful. Is it not yet another example of how we plan ahead for nothing. Slap bang in the middle of the tourist season, we have to dig it up, because nobody factored in the extension when it was built. Not to mention that the extension is a waste of time anyway as it serves a route that currently has no traffic congestion anyway.

This has to happen at the red cow aswell no doubt.
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Unread 04-07-2008, 19:20   #2
Mark Hennessy
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The millions wasted on the Connolly ramp are really going to be shown up with a picece of track about 50m long that in all my travels I have never seen on any other tram system in the world.

Where else would you get it?
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Unread 05-07-2008, 01:36   #3
Thomas J Stamp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derek Wheeler View Post
Does anyone else think that the closure of the red line in the connolly area is disgraceful. Is it not yet another example of how we plan ahead for nothing. Slap bang in the middle of the tourist season, we have to dig it up, because nobody factored in the extension when it was built. Not to mention that the extension is a waste of time anyway as it serves a route that currently has no traffic congestion anyway.

This has to happen at the red cow aswell no doubt.
Ah sure what do we know, despite saying it at the time.

Connolly ramp........... god's it should be up there with e-voting as one of the biggest and most shamefell waste of money ever.

They'll operatre a token service into Connolly, maybe a shuttle to Heuston that runs twice a day, everything else will go to the point, which makes this junction even more of a waste of money.

Keith Waterhouse couldn't make this stuff up.
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Unread 05-07-2008, 13:40   #4
Brian Condron
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Would it not make sense to continue with Connolly as the terminus to the Red Line, and run a shuttle service between Connolly and The Point? Beats running a shuttle service between Connolly and Hueston the most congested part of the line.

It is a farce having to shut shown this section of the line for so long, but at least ever time I have been down there they have been busy. I was expecting to find the place fenced off and quiet, with a solid security guard in a hut surveying his empire. The main question is how do we define "early" Autumn. does reopening on the 29th November count?
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Unread 05-07-2008, 14:43   #5
Mark Gleeson
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There is a certainly extensive work ongoing in Connolly, and seems to be moving along at good pace. The wall at the Connolly stop was designed with the C1 line in mind. No matter what the ramp had to go, the real issue is how on earth some simple muck moving cost so much

The RPA and Veoila have put in place a very reasonable arrangement at Abbey Street to handle the temporary terminus. The advertising of the close has been good as well

The vast majority of Luas passengers are not effected

We should of course remember that under the original plans the Luas terminus was to be outside Easons on Abbey Street so we should be thankful that it even got to Connolly
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Unread 05-07-2008, 21:49   #6
Derek Wheeler
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There is a certainly extensive work ongoing in Connolly, and seems to be moving along at good pace. The wall at the Connolly stop was designed with the C1 line in mind. No matter what the ramp had to go, the real issue is how on earth some simple muck moving cost so much

The RPA and Veoila have put in place a very reasonable arrangement at Abbey Street to handle the temporary terminus. The advertising of the close has been good as well

The vast majority of Luas passengers are not effected

We should of course remember that under the original plans the Luas terminus was to be outside Easons on Abbey Street so we should be thankful that it even got to Connolly
Jesus you sound like the minister for transport. Actually no. You sound like you accept the situation. The concept of being "thankfull" is what has transport in this country screwed up. Thats why Government and muppets like the RPA get away with it. So what if the vast majority of users aren't affected. The linkage between train stations is broken, during the tourist season, when and based on my on site (do you like that? Its one of your lines.) investigations its busier than usual. Neither would I forget the hard working paddies who use it to connect between modes. The work may be defensible in engineering terms, but in planning and customer service terms its plain rediculous and a prime example of how joined up thinking is still sadly lacking in this country.
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Unread 06-07-2008, 09:40   #7
James Shields
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I have to agree here.

The advertising is good up to a point, but two weeks notice is insufficient in my opinion. I've also yet so see an actual completion date. "Early Autumn" give a lot of leyway.

There should be no reason for the closure to take so long. It should be a case of do everything that can possibly be done with the line running, then shut it down for the minimum possible time and work like crazy 24/7 until it can reopen. Contractors should have a scheme in place where they're paid a bonus for early completion and penalties for delays.

I would think that when the line is complete there should still be a decent service out of Connolly. There's no way the point will need the same frequency as Connolly-Heuston. Will trams run Connolly-Point as well?

I think we're sometimes too willing to let IE/RPA away with stuff. This should have been thought out properly in the first place, and we shouldn't have to listen to excuses.
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Unread 06-07-2008, 10:29   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Gleeson View Post
There is a certainly extensive work ongoing in Connolly, and seems to be moving along at good pace. The wall at the Connolly stop was designed with the C1 line in mind. No matter what the ramp had to go, the real issue is how on earth some simple muck moving cost so much

The RPA and Veoila have put in place a very reasonable arrangement at Abbey Street to handle the temporary terminus. The advertising of the close has been good as well
I'd disagree here, we are putting in a massively expensive and complicated piece of track that only serves 50 metres of track!

It's absurd. It's not as if that track is planned to go any further.
I agree with James' point above also, where is the 24/7 working?

Were we not told by the Spanish professor to start building infrastructure and keep going non stop until it is built.

The RPA have done a decent job running the Luas by Irish standards but they shouldn't get off the hook because of this. Their planning skills on the Red Line/Connolly area have at a conservative estimate, cost the taxpayer over €60m!
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Unread 06-07-2008, 11:02   #9
Brian Condron
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It's absurd. It's not as if that track is planned to go any further.
I have seen some preliminary stuff to extend C1 out to the Irish Glass Bottle site, though that was just speculative. The way I see it though this should be seen as a new Luas line Connolly to the Point, not an extension to the Red Line.
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Unread 06-07-2008, 11:17   #10
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I have seen some preliminary stuff to extend C1 out to the Irish Glass Bottle site, though that was just speculative. The way I see it though this should be seen as a new Luas line Connolly to the Point, not an extension to the Red Line.
Ok, if it is a new line then my point doesn't stand but if you view it as a continuation of the Red Line, then the little spur into Connolly is absurd.
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Unread 06-07-2008, 11:19   #11
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Across Europe I've seen very complex tram track arrangements since they suit the needs of people, in fact they have no trouble throwing away bits as well. Issue of 24-7 working is a question of planning approval, the IFSC/Mayor Street area has a considerable residential element

If there was no stop at Connolly we would be up in arms, the ramp is gone not much point to moan about it now

C1 is happening, standing in the way of positive progress is not going to help any one. It was clear there would be a close down to handle the junction at Connolly, regardless of a delta junction or not the close down was always going to be prolonged. The June - August period is the quietest from a commuter point of view

Veoila and the RPA have greatly exceeded the expectations of Dubliners, the service is vastly superior than anything we have ever experienced, its not perfect but having travelled on trams in Europe we are getting a good deal
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Unread 07-07-2008, 11:25   #12
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I live in Amsterdam at the moment, and this summer there seems to be a lot of track works going on (there is usually works somewhere, but at the moment they seem to be everywhere...)...

However... they keep the line open while they work. I've seen cranes lifting up great big chunks of track with people working under and around it... as soon as a tram approaches, the track is laid back down, the workmen move and wave the tram on... as soon as the tram passes, they remove the track again and continue working...there is VERY RARLEY a full closure!

Why can't we do that in Dublin?

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Unread 07-07-2008, 22:57   #13
Derek Wheeler
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Quote:
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Across Europe I've seen very complex tram track arrangements since they suit the needs of people, in fact they have no trouble throwing away bits as well. Issue of 24-7 working is a question of planning approval, the IFSC/Mayor Street area has a considerable residential element

If there was no stop at Connolly we would be up in arms, the ramp is gone not much point to moan about it now

C1 is happening, standing in the way of positive progress is not going to help any one. It was clear there would be a close down to handle the junction at Connolly, regardless of a delta junction or not the close down was always going to be prolonged. The June - August period is the quietest from a commuter point of view

Veoila and the RPA have greatly exceeded the expectations of Dubliners, the service is vastly superior than anything we have ever experienced, its not perfect but having travelled on trams in Europe we are getting a good deal

Claptrap. Are you on the DOT payroll now?

Look and read what is being said on this thread. This fiasco is uniquely Irish and nobody can dispell that. Not even your own opinion Mark, offers any irrefutable evidence that can justify this closure. And thats my opinion. Its not even big news in the media because as a nation we accept it as the norm. How sad.
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Unread 08-07-2008, 08:58   #14
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I was in Rotterdam recently and they replaced track overnight. I may have been pissed but I know what I saw. I am with Derek et al on this one but I dont know if it is the RPA being too' by the book' or them being restrained by contractor working practice and inexperience.
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Unread 08-07-2008, 09:38   #15
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I may try and dig it out but in my book on the Dublin trams it says the DUTC were able to keep the service running when replacing track and adding overhead wire by using special temporary crossings that could be moved each day.

This was in the 19th Century.
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Unread 08-07-2008, 09:55   #16
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Anyone want to start an angry mob? I think I have a pitchfork here somewhere..
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Unread 08-07-2008, 10:04   #17
Mark Gleeson
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If the track was in open country on sleepers you can get 700m replaced in a shift

It takes 7 days for concrete to reach a decent strength. The laws of physics and chemistry can't be broken. The junction is complex and requires care to get it right now to save trouble later. Luas C1 is positive progress and nit picking about it is not helpful

Luas tram full weighs in at over 40 tons, a DUTC tram would be lucky to make 10 tons, modern trams are very unforgiving of bad track. The safety book is based on UK tramway practice. Having the line closed is costing the RPA significant money so there is significant motivation to get the job done quickly and correctly

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 08-07-2008 at 10:56.
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Unread 08-07-2008, 14:06   #18
Thomas J Stamp
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Anyone want to start an angry mob? I think I have a pitchfork here somewhere..

I'm with you.

Look, it didnt take a genius or Mandrake the bloody Magician to know C1 was always going to happen, look at the vast amount of build going on down the Docklands, it clearly needs a light rail element, maybe even on a loop or raised like the Docklands Light Railway in the UK.

Could they nor have just done a stright line down with a stop for connolly? No. This rubbish solution is a waste of money - comparied to what it could have been. I'm sure that they build a massive stop at the point and have to demolish or go around with with another complicated junction if they go to the glass factory in about 5 years time.
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Unread 08-07-2008, 14:16   #19
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There where three routes out of Connolly

One was down the Quays, which given the very significant (and well funded) efforts of the IFSC companies to block the Luas this could not be ruled out.

Second was to knock the stop in Connolly and continue around the back of the IFSC and loop back into Mayor Street at the NCI

Third was Mayor Street

Knowing Ireland we would always pick the wrong one, the wall at the Luas stop was designed with a joint half way down to allow easy removal if the Mayor Street option was taken

Ideally you would sit down and plan the development of a system, then start building it bit by bit building the hooks for the next bit in at each stage. The enemy here is not the RPA or Irish Rail engineers but the bean counters in the DoF who seriously despise such forward planning. I've put this scenario to senior IE and RPA people and every time the answer is the same, thats the way we want to do it, but higher powers restrict

The likely outcome is that at peak hours half the trams will skip Connolly and go direct to the Point a portion will terminate in Connolly and a small number will do the Busaras Connolly reverse Mayor Street routing. Off peak everything via Connolly. Logically if you consider Dublin post interconnector, commuter flows will be either Heuston-Connolly or Connolly-Docklands you won't be doing Heuston Docklands by tram since the train would be at least half the time so it makes perfect sense

Given Connolly's status as a major rail terminal it would be utterly unacceptable to leave passengers in Busaras forcing a significant and dangerous trek to the station. It breaks with all sense in public transport integration and accessibility

Last edited by Mark Gleeson : 08-07-2008 at 14:26.
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Unread 08-07-2008, 19:19   #20
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I remember reading a year or so ago that something about the track in the Busaras area was substandard and would require digging up/relaying the track eventually. It was mentioned on the RUI forums as well I believe.

Now, if this is true, why is this work not being carried out now? The track from Abbey St onward currently is not in use. Is this not the perfect time to dig it up and fix whatever was botched during construction?
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